Connor Krammer

Muv-Luv Feedback

489 posts in this topic

Uh, there's nothing sweet about that. YOu could always do that before, just by selecting said option.

 

All the text appearing at once is really tough to me. It ruins alot of what makes VNS flow so naturally.

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22 minutes ago, rlranft said:

So, it just drops the text in one shot instead of letter by letter by default?  Sweet, I always hated waiting for text to appear.  Waiting for text to appear makes me sad.

Yep. To elaborate, the text style has been changed to match Alternative. That means it's center-aligned, appears all at once, and doesn't have a text box behind it.

Another issue is that in age's modern iterations of their VN engine, they simply don't support scrolling text anymore.

Glad that it doesn't seem to bother you, though :)

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Just now, Connor Krammer said:

Yep. To elaborate, the text style has been changed to match Alternative. That means it's center-aligned, appears all at once, and doesn't have a text box behind it.

Another issue is that in age's modern iterations of their VN engine, they simply don't support scrolling text anymore.

Glad that it doesn't seem to bother you, though :)

Bother me?  Aw, hell no - I read fast and if I'm waiting for a computer to display text then I'm in the wrong century.

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3 hours ago, rlranft said:

Bother me?  Aw, hell no - I read fast and if I'm waiting for a computer to display text then I'm in the wrong century.

I mean it does look cool but it always was too slow so I made it instant like it is now

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Hello, everybody. I registered just now to provide some feedback after reading through this thread. I can't emphasize enough how great it is to see the localization devs interacting with the community like this. You all have my sincere appreciation.

 

I finished Sumika's route in Extra and noticed some bugs nobody else has mentioned, specifically regarding audio, and made some videos for comparison. EDIT: Fixed the poor video capture.

Audio bug 1 (11/23, lunch choice, option 3):

English Steam: https://youtu.be/XC_L1PdLkuU

I can't find a Japanese video for comparison, because this is dependent on picking a certain choice, but if you listen it's very clear that the audio for Chizuru's line is nearly inaudible in comparison to everything else. This is particularly a shame, because it ruins a witty tsukkomi line in a fast-paced comedy scene. (Ignore the glitched cursor graphics. That's my recording software.)

Audio bug 2 (11/27, morning):

English Steam: https://youtu.be/N4mIJvBn19M

Japanese PS3: https://youtu.be/6LCpiNai2pQ?t=3m10s

This seems to be the same issue, but isn't as severe. Mikoto's three lines as he runs around the room are noticeably more quiet than they should be. It seems that these bugs have something to do with the 3D audio because they happen when characters are in weird positions, but they happen even if the AGES-ACS option is turned off in the menu.

Yuuko's car bug (11/23, morning):

English Steam (mine): https://youtu.be/PPLX7v6SBTM

English Steam (somebody else's): https://youtu.be/lSeS44g2rqM?t=13m4s

Japanese PS3: https://youtu.be/1ghWIpv-Njw?t=4m25s

This visual bug was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there's clearly some weird stuff going on here. My computer is not a toaster by any means, but this scene seems to lag even worse for me than it does for the other user.

Tsukuyomi's speech bug (11/23, morning):

English Steam: https://youtu.be/lSeS44g2rqM?t=16m19s

Japanese PS3: https://youtu.be/1ghWIpv-Njw?t=8m50s

This is another bug that's been mentioned, but I don't think anybody has linked a video comparison yet. It's clear that the text in the English localization scrolls too slowly, and then suddenly jumps ahead as her voice gets faster. It does take away from the gag a considerable amount. The speech in its entirety is actually unreadable.

As mentioned, there are two missing spaces at the jumps. ("innovation.These" + "world,and"). Tsukuyomi's sprite also disappears near the end when it shouldn't, and Takeru's thoughts at the end are displayed on the same line as the speech.

11/23 save file naming bug:

English Steam: http://i.imgur.com/g4A4wXs.png

This seems fairly obvious. The data for the in-game day of 11/23 is messed up so that it displays as 11/22 (Tue) rather than 11/23 (Tue). This threw me off a little bit while documenting the previous glitches. (I just checked: the date displays correctly on the "save in the name of love" screen).

 

Phew. Hopefully that documentation helps. Those were the only glitches that detracted from the experience for me, but I did notice a couple of other miscellaneous typos (I think most of those were caught and screenshotted here and on the Steam thread, however). I did also notice some ugly resized backgrounds and cropped CGs (the only really noticeable one is the drunk party at the hot springs), but that topic has been discussed to death already and I don't hold it against the English localization.

As for the translation, I really enjoyed it. Ayamine's character shone very well, and I found myself consistently impressed by the creativity of the translation in capturing the spirit of certain lines (incidentally, being able to switch to the Japanese script with a button is an amazing feature). The redrawn CGs for English text looked great, too.

Of the revoiced English lines, I've only encountered the Valgernon ones so far. The speaker has a pretty heavy Australian accent that sounds strange to my American ears. Certainly a huge improvement in terms of palatability over the original Japanglish, but I do hope that the American soldiers in Alternative don't sound like Aussies. Still not a big deal in any case.

My only complaint with the localization is Takeru's "dude." This might be a regional thing (I'm from Southern California), but I find it very strange how he says it to the girls, particularly Meiya since it's such a masculine term. It's not a unisex term in my mind. It sounds... very immature used that way. Though I understand it's supposed to be an idiosyncrasy of his speech, it did stand out to me as I first read the script.

That said, "dude" was a pretty clever solution for Meiya's "omae." Does anybody remember how Amaterasu did that?

EDIT: About the Unlimited unlock issue, I agree that a pop-up is the ideal solution. But I strongly feel that the Unlimited cast picture shouldn't display on mouse-over without it being "unlocked." The fact that Sumika is missing in Unlimited, replaced by Kasumi, is a huge deal and first-time players shouldn't have any hints of it while playing Extra.

Edited by robotization

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15 hours ago, robotization said:

That said, "dude" was a pretty clever solution for Meiya's "omae." Does anybody remember how Amaterasu did that?

In Amaterasu's translation, "omae" was simply translated as "you." The subsequent lines emphasized the informal aspect of the term. I imagine this must have been confusing to anyone unfamiliar with the varying degrees of formality in Japanese speech. While I agree that "dude" makes Takeru sound immature (which he is, lest we forget), I think the new translation is a solid compromise on the localization staff's part.

Edit: Excellent point about "dude" being a slightly male-gendered term. In my experience, it's not often used when addressing women unless they're hanging out in a group with a bunch of other guys. It's not perfect, but it works quite well here, in my opinion.

@StormVanguard While I agree that "hey man" would sound more natural in certain cases (instead of "hey dude"), I think it would cause word gendering issues in certain key scenes. Placing it within the context of Meiya's "omae" scenes, she would essentially be getting sentimental over someone calling her "man," an unusual turn of phrase, to say the least.

Edited by MarcoSnow

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Just now, MarcoSnow said:

In Amaterasu's translation, "omae" was simply translated as "you." The subsequent lines emphasized the informal aspect of the term. I imagine this must have been confusing to anyone unfamiliar with the varying degrees of formality in Japanese speech. While I agree that "dude" makes Takeru sound immature (which he is, lest we forget), I think it's a solid compromise on the localization staff's part.

I don't disagree. Obviously it's something that the translation team put some thought into, and carefully chose it as an appropriate translation. Japanese translation is a tricky business, to say in the least, and I do see the logic in their decision. This is just my knee-jerk reaction as a reader.

What I'm trying to say is that there's (in my mind) a huge difference between it being appropriate for Takeru to say "dude" to Extra Mikoto and for him to do the same to Meiya. The former sounds perfectly casual and natural, while the latter comes across as immature or even disrespectful. It makes more sense with Sumika, because she's a childhood friend and he's used to treating her as "one of the guys."

It might be a regional difference in slang. I say "dude" quite a lot in casual speech, but I wouldn't ever say it to a woman. Yet, online most sources say it's a unisex term. So my perspective might differ from the norm.

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@robotization Not sure why you recorded the stuff like that.... but shrug w/e it still works

Thanks for the detailed reports, I hope that the staff is able to fix it up :)

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3 minutes ago, Randomacts said:

@robotization Not sure why you recorded the stuff like that.... but shrug w/e it still works

Yeah, it's my bad. I captured all the video before I realized that my software was doing that, and I wasn't sure how to stop it from doing that so I went with it.

I have some time to kill, so I might as well do things properly and crop the video. I'll re-upload them when I'm done.

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Just now, robotization said:

Yeah, it's my bad. I captured all the video before I realized that my software was doing that, and I wasn't sure how to stop it from doing that so I went with it.

I have some time to kill, so I might as well do things properly and crop the video. I'll re-upload them when I'm done.

Not sure if it is worth the effort. they are plenty usable how they are. Just in the future try to make sure your settings are setup correctly.

(I personally have been using fraps on muv luv without issue.. it somehow still works on windows 10) 

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@robotizationI very much appreciate your effort and the community welcomes you. ^ ^7

2 hours ago, robotization said:

I don't disagree. Obviously it's something that the translation team put some thought into, and carefully chose it as an appropriate translation. Japanese translation is a tricky business, to say in the least, and I do see the logic in their decision. This is just my knee-jerk reaction as a reader.

What I'm trying to say is that there's (in my mind) a huge difference between it being appropriate for Takeru to say "dude" to Extra Mikoto and for him to do the same to Meiya. The former sounds perfectly casual and natural, while the latter comes across as immature or even disrespectful. It makes more sense with Sumika, because she's a childhood friend and he's used to treating her as "one of the guys."

It might be a regional difference in slang. I say "dude" quite a lot in casual speech, but I wouldn't ever say it to a woman. Yet, online most sources say it's a unisex term. So my perspective might differ from the norm.

Thank you for saying this. haha

@robotization @MkilbrideTakeru just seems contradicting to his character and sheltered when he say's it to someone like Meiya with zero hesitation. Normally a light bulb would go off and you would throw on the breaks and stop your habit or at the very least catch yourself after saying a word like that. But it's like... zero ****s given clearly by Shirogane Takeru. xD There's a certain charm in "omae" i think doesn't convey the same in a situation like this when it's localized like this. I can't recall if Takeru ever uses "omae" in Alternative again, but it's gonna be jarring if so.

3 hours ago, robotization said:

Of the revoiced English lines, I've only encountered the Valgernon ones so far. The speaker has a pretty heavy Australian accent that sounds strange to my American ears. Certainly a huge improvement in terms of palatability over the original Japanglish,

I knew this was changed, thank you for pointing this out because i don't think anyone else did. And yeah i liked this change.

3 hours ago, robotization said:

As for the translation, I really enjoyed it. Ayamine's character shone very well, and I found myself consistently impressed by the creativity of the translation in capturing the spirit of certain lines (incidentally, being able to switch to the Japanese script with a button is an amazing feature).

Clearly i'm out of the loop here and i need to hit the books.

Edited by StormVanguard

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Yeah, the lines  like "Dude" and "Pysch!" really turned me off. This is supposed to be set in Japan. I seriously doubt Japanese teenagers are running around saying them.

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37 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Yeah, the lines  like "Dude" and "Pysch!" really turned me off. This is supposed to be set in Japan. I seriously doubt Japanese teenagers are running around saying them.

just out of curiosity, What alternatives would you recommend for those phrases.

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It works. Dude isn't a common word in many areas, but it works better than saying "you you you" which I can understand as I know enough Japanese to understand the context and the original word but it still is disruptive to read 'you you you'

 

It's like teme being translated as 'bastard'. A translation I personally find more fluid than Omae to 'dude', but only because dude isn't a common word in my area.Dude is probably the best fit. Sometimes there is no perfect fit.

 

Edited by dongaro

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@MonetMan is an alternative.

@dongaroNone that is perfect but here's something everyone is spacing here with this change. It's not only jarring in english but it's jarring to think of this in japanese as well clearly Takeru would be throwing out engrish slang instead of saying "omae" and it doesn't make sense for him to question Meiya's reaction rather than a light bulb going off during those moments.

I think i'm so vocal about this because i can't recall if Omae is used in Alternative i'm more looking at the future here otherwise i would have let this go. Takeru's development clearly affects his maturity in Alternative thus his Shiroganese has less use and more used i believe because it triggers certain events. Though i'm not sure about this because my memory is honestly horrible.

Though this is the first thing i should have asked about.

If my dang saves didn't corrupt i would still have the client on my hdd and looked this up after reading the localization.

Edited by StormVanguard

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@StormVanguard man... I guess. Still I find it just as awkward as dude. More so infact as it's less gender neutral, and sounds like someone trying to be 'in with the times man'.

Also he has used in english translation 'you' with relation to meiya previously (in english we need it for the line to sound right, in the japanese script the word you was not used in relation to Meiya, because when speaking with her as the subject either he name was used or  the object was dropped).

Basically Japanese and English don't easily work well together. There's a reason translators of manga sometimes have to put out an announcement that a character was actually male/female all along and that in setting everyone knew it. in english 'he said this' could be written as 'A-kun said this' or if it is known that A-kun is the subject it would be ' said this'. In fact if both the subject and object is known it could also be written as 'said'.

'You' is not something used except informally or intimately (generally speaking). I think omae has also be translate as 'dearest, or sweetheart' on occasion between married couples.

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I don't want to turn this into a huge tangent on an issue the translator has already responded to, but I'd like to clarify myself again.

I have no problem whatsoever with Takeru using slang. It fits his character in Extra, as he often uses very casual speaking styles in the Japanese script. I think we can all agree that his lines shouldn't be rendered sterile and "proper."

I love how the localization adds flair to not just Takeru, but the whole cast. One translation in particular (among many) that impressed me was near the end of the Sumika-Meiya route. Sumika says that Takeru is "kakkoii," and that's translated as "dreamy." It's a nice word with some 90s charm that fits the world of Extra and smoothly conveys Sumika's feelings. Unusual word choices like that can work very well, and that's what I meant when I praised the translation's creativity.

@dongaro Actually, from what I've seen (I was curious, so I looked at the Japanese of most lines where Takeru says "dude" in the translation), it's generally not used as an equivalent of "omae." I believe the translator's intent with "dude" specifically was to convey Takeru's rougher speech patterns. For example:

http://i.imgur.com/OkfsGKo.jpg "Ore datte ganbatteru ndayo~"

http://i.imgur.com/3O1ecN2.jpg "I'm doing the best I can, dude..."

I'm completely fine with that translation in isolation, and I actually quite like it. The only part that rubs me the wrong way is that he's calling Tsukuyomi a "dude." For the reasons I said before, it seems not just careless, but insolent. If he was talking to Takahashi instead (for example), I would probably feel differently about it.

The "omae, omae, omae" with Meiya being translated as "dude" makes perfect sense to me, because it's specifically called out as being informal/disrespectful.

@StormVanguard Thank you for the kind welcome!

And I agree. Though it seems strange, I think "man" would work better when Takeru is addressing women. Because "man," to me, is more clearly a sort of exclamation in this case (e.g. "Give me a break, man!").

...Actually, now that I think about it, that might be the crux of the matter. I address people as "dude" fairly commonly. When my brain reads "dude" in casual speech, I tend to take it as more of an address to a specific person, rather than a general exclamation. I'm more likely to say, "Dude, where are my keys?" rather than, "I lost my keys, dude!" The Takeruisms present in the translation seem to be of the latter usage.

So again, it may be a regional English thing. That would explain why some feel about "dude" strongly while others don't notice it at all.

 

I also noticed a minor typo during the all-ages scene in Meiya's route (a missing dot in one of the ellipses). Very slight, but hey:

http://i.imgur.com/xKDSEWD.jpg

Edited by robotization

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@StormVanguard "Man" isn't any more or less accurate than "dude," nor does it inherently sound any better or worse.  It's entirely subjective, and sure, it may not sound as good to you, but the difference is so trivial that it seems a bit odd to be focusing so much attention to it.  I also think that it's a bit premature to make assumptions as to how the translation team will localize things in Alternative.  The whole point of the way they are doing things is to convey the intended connotation of each scene rather than simply go with a plug-n-play direct translation. 

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@dongaroI do appreciate the time to think this out it's oddly fun to debate.

@robotizationYour thoughts have been very informative and helped me realize my fixation on this while also appreciating this use in some areas. Such as when he's talking to Mikoto it's a bit cute actually since he more see's her like a bro since he's always known her to be a guy and a close friend of his the informal use works with Sumika as well works with being child hood friends but when it comes to Tsukiyomi and Meiya it just contradicts what could have been praise worthy. So a bit of a brain fart here.. why don't we just use dude and man?

It wouldn't be a jarring change confusing anyone and it would be easier to imagine for Takeru to say dude to his close friends and man to a woman of higher status.

But i do agree it's been talked to death so i think we can stop here.

Edited by StormVanguard

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@robotization Thank you for the super-detailed reports, and especially for those videos. They help immensely.

The ellipsis error (2 instead of 3) is also fixed now, though it won't be pushed out until the next big script update to avoid breaking saves. Sharp eye!

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12 hours ago, MarcoSnow said:

In Amaterasu's translation, "omae" was simply translated as "you." The subsequent lines emphasized the informal aspect of the term. I imagine this must have been confusing to anyone unfamiliar with the varying degrees of formality in Japanese speech. While I agree that "dude" makes Takeru sound immature (which he is, lest we forget), I think the new translation is a solid compromise on the localization staff's part.

Edit: Excellent point about "dude" being a slightly male-gendered term. In my experience, it's not often used when addressing women unless they're hanging out in a group with a bunch of other guys. It's not perfect, but it works quite well here, in my opinion.

@StormVanguard While I agree that "hey man" would sound more natural in certain cases (instead of "hey dude"), I think it would cause word gendering issues in certain key scenes. Placing it within the context of Meiya's "omae" scenes, she would essentially be getting sentimental over someone calling her "man," an unusual turn of phrase, to say the least.

I would posit that the appropriate use of "dude" is probably region-dependent (as well as time-dependent, we used "dude" pretty much gender-neutral in 1985 central California coast area).  I have noticed over the years as I traveled that this varies widely from region to region, with a fairly common female equivalent being "chick" - but most women I know find that term mildly offensive.  This is probably one where there are a few dozen "right" answers.

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So out of interest of the topic we had a few days ago about the differences between Waifux2 and the in-game renderer, I decided to take the scene in question myself.

 

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/179468

 

This is a Waifux2 processed image - default settings and no compression, so the file size -is- bloated.  -  The JPEG version is the SAME size as the JPEG version of the upscaled in-game one. So both would end up being similar in size. PNG is the preferred I know, and I'm sure that the Waifux2 one could be made much smaller in PNG form regardless. With some fine tuning on Waifux2, I'm sure the image could look even better.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/179469 - Comparison between it in JPG & PNG.

 

I know the Waifux2 smudges some stuff - not finely tuned, default settings mind you, but I think overall, it's more pleasing to the eyes. The Text of course is affected by the upscale, but would look normal  due to the game rendering that separately.

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@Mkilbride While Waifu2x is definitely fun to play with, I'm afraid it's not productive to this feedback thread beyond what's already been expressed on the CG front. I'm afraid that there's very little to be done about it that hasn't already been noted and passed on to the devs, and we'll get back to you with news when we have it.

You're free to continue experimenting with Waifu2x, but I'd appreciate if you continue it in a separate thread so we can keep this one focused on issues that haven't yet been properly documented. That helps us address and fix problems much quicker.

Thanks.

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I decided to go ahead and create an account so that I can join the other great voices in here.

First of all, finally getting to open up Muv-Luv on steam was really a blast. Not something I'd have ever expected to happen when I originally read the VN. The first thing I did was enter the options and I was slightly disappointed seeing some of the features in the original engine had been cut. After reading through the many comments made I understand the changes, but I'll still miss my blue colored UI and text-boxes. Pink just doesn't do it for me.

Probably my biggest issue with the game initially was Unlimited being immediately unlocked. Through my time participating and reading discussions about Muv-Luv there was always an abundant amount of people who wished to skip Extra, or asked if it was actually important. The community always responded in unison that Extra is a central part of what makes Unlimited and Alternative as good as they are. I have no doubt that there is an amount of people who would have skipped Extra altogether if they had the option which is available in the current version on steam. I was very glad to see other people shared this view and that the Degica team has not only taken that feedback, but are allowing us to give some input. As for my input I think the in-depth version gives new readers a good explanation as to how important Extra is.

After I actually got to reading Muv-Luv for a while something struck me about the visuals. I could certainly see some improvement on some of the CGs, but oddly enough overall the visuals seemed to be slightly lackluster. Of course I went into my display to try and see if I just had it unscaled, but nothing seemed to make it as smooth as it should or could be. While it isn't a huge problem it was just something I noticed as I read.

A big disappointment for me after realizing it, was the issue with the music and copyrights. Livin La Vida Muv Luv was a very memorable track for me and I'm very sad to see it go. As it was discussed I don't see much that can be done, so I will try my best to embrace the new tracks that will replace them.

While initially some of the localization choices in the translation were a bit jarring, I felt like they represented the dialogue in a much better way than the fan translation. Especially for readers who can't pick up some of the meaning from the Japanese voicing. The translation in general flowed much better and really seemed to much more enjoyable.

Overall I'm very glad that this project made it so far. While I had my gripes with some of the changes, I feel that the spirit of Muv-Luv is still intact, and its now in a more accessible format. Thanks to all the Degica staff that has been working on this project to bring it to this point, and even more-so for addressing the opinions of the fans. I'll be waiting warmly for more updates, and eventually the release of Alternative.

 

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