Rengo

Schwarzesmarken

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Kind of weird there is no schwarzesmarken thread yet considering it' less than 3 months away and the vn it's 2 weeks from release. 

What are your thoughts on the ligth novel? For me, I started maybe last week and I'm currently reading Chapter 3 of the first volume.

So far I like this darker tone the series addopted. War in a BETA universe is a serious matter and so far I'm really enjoying how the series has depicted the personal and political conflicts between Easter and Western Germany in an atempt to survive the BETA invasion and elimintation the other party in the process. 

As for the MC I have strong faith that he will remain an intesting character till the end, sadly I won't know how the story ends before the anime arrives (I hate not being able to futher continue my japanese lessons) 

I don't much about Irisdina's and Beatrix's past, but both of them are in my opinion and so far well made characters, Irisdina being the calm, cold and caring leader (also a racist comedian) and Beatrix the crazy murderous sexy stasi major (god I love her)

So, what are your thoughts in the recent and upcoming german spin off material? Avoid non translated spoilers as minimun as possible.

( If this thread needs to be move or have it's own category please inform and proced to do so)

20150918_schwarz01.png

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I had been wanting to start reading the light novel, but I kept dragged on until now. With the anime coming out next year, I think I'll just hold off and watch it before the LN. For adaptations I always like to start with the adapted anime/manga before I start with the original LN/source materials.

I had enjoyed the serious and darker sides in the Muv Luv Franchise, so with the general overview of schwarzesmarken's setting I think I'll be very fond of it. 

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Yeah, so far everything's been really good, I also have high spectations on the animation for the anime, like not a single pv has been released as if they were gonna strike us with something awesome, dunno. I'm a naive person xD

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Read the first few chapters of the LN, it feels more like a war story and seems a bit more disassociated with the overall Muv Luv franchise. It was fairly dark but not on the absolute despair level of alternative. l'm really missing the juxtaposition of the extra verse in the newer side stories, it was really what made the series magical for me. The recent work has been very focused on the BETA conflict and moving away from the intrigue of Muv Luv.

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41 minutes ago, Discalibur said:

Read the first few chapters of the LN, it feels more like a war story and seems a bit more disassociated with the overall Muv Luv franchise. It was fairly dark but not on the absolute despair level of alternative. l'm really missing the juxtaposition of the extra verse in the newer side stories, it was really what made the series magical for me. The recent work has been very focused on the BETA conflict and moving away from the intrigue of Muv Luv.

Since you mentioned, I think this is an interesting gem of Muv Luv franchise:
It offers different perspectives or enjoyments to various audience. All of them involved the theme of cruelty of reality aka BETA together with constant involvements of war/battle and politics. But with this same general formula, each stories is added with different elements to spice up the plot (from my POV, adding spoiler tag just in case):

Spoiler

The trilogy: we follow an elite special force trying to end the threat of BETA with Takeru's dilemmas faced due to the world+time travelling (unfamiliar environment, overwhelming responsibility, relationships which had become his major supports in the new reality)

TE: it takes on TSF testers' role and thoughts in BETA warfare with Yuuya's nationality, or rather his take on his personal identity (prejudice, loyalty to America, pride as Japanese). Though it brings in more focus on international politics. The perspective of those who had lost their homeland and their opinion on the world also seems interesting to me.

TDA: looking through the eyes of those who survived till the post-apocalyptic Alt-5 world and what it truly means for humanity's survival

Schwarzesmarken: Those who were in the front-lines during the earlier phase of BETA invasion with far more warfare disadvantage compared to other stories.

I think most of us are amazed with how Extra-Unlimited-Alternative was presented, and I agree that this was the thing that makes it shines among many VNs. It also opened up a lot of potentials using the BETA world which Age utilizes in delivering more variations in the recent works. So personally, I think it'll be better to view these as separate stories build upon the ML-verse (with links between them) rather than as comparisons between each works, since each takes on different themes.

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2 hours ago, Svenhent said:

Since you mentioned, I think this is an interesting gem of Muv Luv franchise:
It offers different perspectives or enjoyments to various audience. All of them involved the theme of cruelty of reality aka BETA together with constant involvements of war/battle and politics. But with this same general formula, each stories is added with different elements to spice up the plot (from my POV, adding spoiler tag just in case):

  Hide contents

The trilogy: we follow an elite special force trying to end the threat of BETA with Takeru's dilemmas faced due to the world+time travelling (unfamiliar environment, overwhelming responsibility, relationships which had become his major supports in the new reality)

TE: it takes on TSF testers' role and thoughts in BETA warfare with Yuuya's nationality, or rather his take on his personal identity (prejudice, loyalty to America, pride as Japanese). Though it brings in more focus on international politics. The perspective of those who had lost their homeland and their opinion on the world also seems interesting to me.

TDA: looking through the eyes of those who survived till the post-apocalyptic Alt-5 world and what it truly means for humanity's survival

Schwarzesmarken: Those who were in the front-lines during the earlier phase of BETA invasion with far more warfare disadvantage compared to other stories.

I think most of us are amazed with how Extra-Unlimited-Alternative was presented, and I agree that this was the thing that makes it shines among many VNs. It also opened up a lot of potentials using the BETA world which Age utilizes in delivering more variations in the recent works. So personally, I think it'll be better to view these as separate stories build upon the ML-verse (with links between them) rather than as comparisons between each works, since each takes on different themes.

yep and most of them besides muv-luv will have bad ending written all over them since BETAs keep winning despite all their efforts.

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2 hours ago, Svenhent said:

Since you mentioned, I think this is an interesting gem of Muv Luv franchise:
It offers different perspectives or enjoyments to various audience. All of them involved the theme of cruelty of reality aka BETA together with constant involvements of war/battle and politics. But with this same general formula, each stories is added with different elements to spice up the plot (from my POV, adding spoiler tag just in case):

  Reveal hidden contents

The trilogy: we follow an elite special force trying to end the threat of BETA with Takeru's dilemmas faced due to the world+time travelling (unfamiliar environment, overwhelming responsibility, relationships which had become his major supports in the new reality)

TE: it takes on TSF testers' role and thoughts in BETA warfare with Yuuya's nationality, or rather his take on his personal identity (prejudice, loyalty to America, pride as Japanese). Though it brings in more focus on international politics. The perspective of those who had lost their homeland and their opinion on the world also seems interesting to me.

TDA: looking through the eyes of those who survived till the post-apocalyptic Alt-5 world and what it truly means for humanity's survival

Schwarzesmarken: Those who were in the front-lines during the earlier phase of BETA invasion with far more warfare disadvantage compared to other stories.

I think most of us are amazed with how Extra-Unlimited-Alternative was presented, and I agree that this was the thing that makes it shines among many VNs. It also opened up a lot of potentials using the BETA world which Age utilizes in delivering more variations in the recent works. So personally, I think it'll be better to view these as separate stories build upon the ML-verse (with links between them) rather than as comparisons between each works, since each takes on different themes.

Well, to me the core story began and ended with the Muv-Luv VNs. They told a complete story with no real room for carrying it forward, and Age would've had no reason to release more Muv-Luv titles unless there was a popular demand for it, and hence more money to be made. Lo and behold, Muv-Luv Alternative became their most popular and acclaimed title, so it made a lot of business sense to milk the franchise for all it was worth, beyond the character cameos and continuity nods they already have a habit of doing. (that's something that really makes me curious. Why do some VN companies go all Bret Easton Ellis and make their characters and settings intersect? I know 0verflow's work would be a lot easier to stomach if they didn't do this.)

And so far, their tactic seems to be working like a charm.

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... I don't know. Being honest, I've almost enjoyed the side-stories more than the main trilogy. Don't get me wrong, the main trilogy is amazing in a lot of ways, but in another is a simple tale of growing up with inter-dimensional travel as a metaphor (and  the inter-dimensional travel is used like a plot device, without rules and only vague reasons). And sincerely, I always found the setting the most interesting part. They just put it so much care and love, it would be a waste to only know it from Takeru's eyes, who doesn't even want to be there.

And contrarily to Total eclipse, which was more or less a similar growing up story with a strong focus on the technical side, it seem Schwarzesmarken is a lot more raw, and it delves in a wonderful setting (even if they take their liberties with history): while the divisions between the countries even in the face of the beta were seen in TE, how it must have felt in the front-lines? Specially with such a traumatized country like Germany?

Oh, and actually, @PulakK, one of Age's biggest hits is Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, which had an anime that is still extremely beloved and in a lots of top 10 lists. Here only Muv-Luv is known and so a lot more beloved, but in Japan both VNs are considered roughly equal, and the anime was a lot more popular. So,while milking the cow is undoubtedly a motive, I don't think that's all there is to it. They clearly have a lot of stories to tell with that setting.

Edited by Marx-93

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4 minutes ago, Marx-93 said:

Oh, and actually, @PulakK, one of Age's biggest hits is Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, which had an anime that is still extremely beloved and in a lots of top 10 lists. Here only Muv-Luv is known and so a lot more beloved, but in Japan both VNs are considered roughly equal, and the anime was a lot more popular. So,while milking the cow is undoubtedly a motive, I don't think that's all there is to it. They clearly have a lot of stories to tell with that setting.

Funny you should mention KGNE. I was aware that it was Age's breakout title, but I always thought Muv-Luv Alternative eclipsed it in popularity. And as for the anime, that actually was localized for release in the west, in fact I think Yoshimune-san's said that the success of Rumbling Hearts was what drew his attention to the Western market.

I wonder why there's this discrepancy between Muv-Luv's and KGNE's popularity outside of Japan. Could it be because the original VN hasn't even gotten a complete fan translation until now?

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4 hours ago, PulakK said:

Funny you should mention KGNE. I was aware that it was Age's breakout title, but I always thought Muv-Luv Alternative eclipsed it in popularity. And as for the anime, that actually was localized for release in the west, in fact I think Yoshimune-san's said that the success of Rumbling Hearts was what drew his attention to the Western market.

I wonder why there's this discrepancy between Muv-Luv's and KGNE's popularity outside of Japan. Could it be because the original VN hasn't even gotten a complete fan translation until now?

Yeah, the anime had good reception in the West, but in Japan it had some very nice numbers, at least double the sales that TE had.

On the popularity discrepancy, I think the main factors are both that there is no translation, but also that in general the West is a lot more receptive to Action/Science Fiction stories than a love drama, specially one as heavy-handed as KGNE (and there's no early silliness to draw you in like with Key). Still, I think that it's not we outnumber them that much, but simply that we may be searching in the wrong place: Most people loved KGNE through the anime, so most of them may not even know there's a VN and may not even know it and Muv-Luv are related: we won't find them in the VN fandom claiming for a VN they don't know exists.

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8 minutes ago, Marx-93 said:

Yeah, the anime had good reception in the West, but in Japan it had some very nice numbers, at least double the sales that TE had.

On the popularity discrepancy, I think the main factors are both that there is no translation, but also that in general the West is a lot more receptive to Action/Science Fiction stories than a love drama, specially one as heavy-handed as KGNE (and there's no early silliness to draw you in like with Key). Still, I think that it's not we outnumber them that much, but simply that we may be searching in the wrong place: Most people loved KGNE through the anime, so most of them may not even know there's a VN and may not even know it and Muv-Luv are related: we won't find them in the VN fandom claiming for a VN they don't know exists.

Ah yes, that does make sense. Many VNs have a far more niche market than anime do, which would explain why most of them that are localized don't get dubbed. The ones that mix novel elements with gameplay like Ace Attorney and Dangan Ronpa are far more well-known. Though this Kickstarter does indicate things are going to change.

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7 hours ago, PulakK said:

Well, to me the core story began and ended with the Muv-Luv VNs. They told a complete story with no real room for carrying it forward, and Age would've had no reason to release more Muv-Luv titles unless there was a popular demand for it, and hence more money to be made. Lo and behold, Muv-Luv Alternative became their most popular and acclaimed title, so it made a lot of business sense to milk the franchise for all it was worth, beyond the character cameos and continuity nods they already have a habit of doing. (that's something that really makes me curious. Why do some VN companies go all Bret Easton Ellis and make their characters and settings intersect? I know 0verflow's work would be a lot easier to stomach if they didn't do this.)

And so far, their tactic seems to be working like a charm.

I'm honestly not that bothered by the milking. There's a lot you can do with the basic premise of the BETAverse, an alternate universe where aliens attacked in the 70's. With the original trilogy, we got crossdimensional schenanigans, TE was SoL of test pilots, and now Schwarzesmarken is a historical political war drama of a country being overrun by aliens. 

One thing I like about Muv Luv is that aliens invading does not automatically mean world peace among humans. Schwarzesmarken gets to explore that aspect a little more. 

Also, 0verflow's family tree is hilariously bizarre even by almost everyone is related somehow standards. I guess the reason why some companies decide to make their works of fiction intersect is because A: Marvel and DC did it first and B: It's probably easier to make up new settings and characters if they are related to ones you have already made from scratch. 

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2 hours ago, encrypted12345 said:

I guess the reason why some companies decide to make their works of fiction intersect is because A: Marvel and DC did it first and B: It's probably easier to make up new settings and characters if they are related to ones you have already made from scratch. 

As an added result, having different works share a common universe potentially attracts the original fans, especially if each of said works expands on this shared world. In that, it could be considered milking for sure, since you're relying on the fanbase for momentum.

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What bothers me about the post-MLA series is that they feel like they were done as an afterthought after the massive popularity of the original. They weren't thoroughly pre-planned as a fluid continuity.

Like how KimiNozo transitioned into Akane Maniax into Extra.

Spoiler

Gouda transferred out of Hakuryo which allowed Meiya to take up his spot as the new transfer student. Mentioned very early on in Extra. (Akane Maniax is the first appearance of the muv luv cast)

Also how,

Spoiler

Valgernon, the game which inspired Takeru to help develop the XN3 system, was a popular game played by Takayuki in KimiNozo.

These callbacks made the Age universe feel very unified, the seeds they planted early on became integrated into the plot and I feel that's kinda missing out in the post-MLA works.

 

Edited by Discalibur

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4 hours ago, Discalibur said:

What bothers me about the post-MLA series is that they feel like they were done as an afterthought after the massive popularity of the original.

I wouldn't say that for TDA at least. It gives something that I always wanted to see and felt was missing from the main trilogy (though of course it evolved into its own thing that's better read after). I wouldn't dismiss some of the Chronicles/short stories either, as they feel as parts that were cut from the main story for probably all kind of reasons like time and/or budget. Like anything related to the trilogy's characters.

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28 minutes ago, frogtaku said:

I wouldn't say that for TDA at least. It gives something that I always wanted to see and felt was missing from the main trilogy (though of course it evolved into its own thing that's better read after). I wouldn't dismiss some of the Chronicles/short stories either, as they feel as parts that were cut from the main story for probably all kind of reasons like time and/or budget. Like anything related to the trilogy's characters.

Yeah, I think it also flesh out some characters with their backstories and point of view in BETA-verse. Those characters might have enough character development in the main trilogy, so using side stories to help define their personalities and characteristics.

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I must say, it's a bit convenient that Schwarzesmarken is coming out in the gap of time between the kickstarter and the release of the Muv luv games. Currently, ML Extra/Unlimited is scheduled to release late first cour/early second cour while Muv Luv Alternative is planned to be released at most 3 months after the end of the anime. Of course, this assumes that there are 2 cour and that the 2nd cour airs immediately after the first, but the former is probably a reasonable assumption as there are 7 novels in all.

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5 hours ago, encrypted12345 said:

I must say, it's a bit convenient that Schwarzesmarken is coming out in the gap of time between the kickstarter and the release of the Muv luv games. Currently, ML Extra/Unlimited is scheduled to release late first cour/early second cour while Muv Luv Alternative is planned to be released at most 3 months after the end of the anime. Of course, this assumes that there are 2 cour and that the 2nd cour airs immediately after the first, but the former is probably a reasonable assumption as there are 7 novels in all.

One thing's for sure, we won't have much time to be bored these coming months :D

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On 14/11/2015 21:37:02, Discalibur said:

What bothers me about the post-MLA series is that they feel like they were done as an afterthought after the massive popularity of the original. They weren't thoroughly pre-planned as a fluid continuity.

Schwarzesmarken follows from operation Palaiologos (mentioned in alternative) and is basically a direct result of the retconed maps of Unlimited. Also, if you're looking for details like the ones from Akane maniax, you'll really find plenty on TDA or TFIA for example.

Spoiler

like were are the captain's sisters, or what happened to Takayuki in the Alt verse, etc

 

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I'm thinking of watching the anime as it airs, but I won't be playing Muv Luv until Degica finishes with it. Would it be alright for me to do that?

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10 hours ago, Ian said:

I'm thinking of watching the anime as it airs, but I won't be playing Muv Luv until Degica finishes with it. Would it be alright for me to do that?

Yea, it should be fine. As far as I know the anime won't spoil anything from the main VNs.

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While it won't spoil much, it might ruin some of the "twists" of Unlimited and Alternative: seeing how dangerous and horrifying the BETA actually are was a big part of both, and the impact will definitely be lessened, as Schwarzesmarken doesn't f*ck around with deaths.

If you've already seen Total eclipse then it's totally fine, but if not you things may be slightly different: I mean, the game would still be good and all, but you are probably to be a lot more prepared for certain scenes that took the rest of us completely by surprise.

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Does anybody know when the earliest air date for the uncensored version of the Schwarzesmarken anime is? I heard it was January 15 but I was wondering if one of the networks might air it earlier than that in it's uncensored form.

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Man it was bummer that the VN ended in a cliffhanger that probably one could see from a mile away. Still a cliffhanger no less. I wonder is the anime will cover the entire light novels or will it end like TE. I kind of want it to finish like TE because then I can go and have the excuse to finish part 2. If not then that's cool too. Because then I can be like a cynical asshole and say "Well the VN did it better." Provided of course they end the anime where Part 1 ended.

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