Dergonu

Question about priorities

12 posts in this topic

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So, as one of the people who is trying my very best to patiently wait for the 18+ patch, so I can finally play Muv-Luv, after over 4 entire months of waiting since the release, I am pretty worried by this tweet. You guys have estimated Alternative for a possible Febuary release. Add in the current time it took to make the patch for Muv-Luv, (assuming it does come out in November, which might not even happen,) it took 4 and a half months to get it done, putting the original content of Alternative sometime in late June 2017. If you put even less priority on this work in Alternative, the waiting time for the original version of Muv-Luv Alternative will just be completely unreasonable.

I really don't want to make any whining threads or anything, as I truly do understand and respect the fact that this porting is a big challenge, but as a fan of the original work and not a censored version, I'm really struggling just sitting by silently when so many people can play an altered version of the game, while we have to wait who knows how long in order to play the original. It feels like the fact that this is originally an eroge has slipped everyone's minds, as they happily play the altered version whille we just sit here waiting.

 

Can you guys explain this tweet in any way? Have the people waiting patiently for the original work become less of a priority over these past 4 months, where we have all been silently waiting for the day we can finally play the game...? It seems like a blow in the gut to the people who are already down.

Again, I truly do understand that porting takes time, but this is an eroge originally, and loads of people out there are waiting for the ability to play the actual eroge content in this game. The waiting time is getting a tad bit crazy, so a tweet saying it might be even longer the next time around really sounds like we just aren't appriciated much at all, when we in fact should be the original crowd targeted by a game like this.

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The tweet before that stated that they will make the Vita release first priority, it makes more sense to get the actual game out to the Vita owners first since they won't even have the first game yet when Alternative releases.

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The reasoning behind this is strange. I'm not particularly for or against, but my opinion on the update is it shouldn't take as long as it has taken to get to this stage.

But anyway, the fundamental reasoning they have presented for making it lower priority is that it takes too long. That doesn't make a great deal of sense, given it would be in their best interest to do the things which take longer first, rather than push them back and make the process of that update take even longer.

The reasoning would make sense if it was just for the vita release, but all I can see in the tweet is "hey look, it took too long, therefore lower priority next time, Vita bumped to higher priority. xd". Which doesn't make much sense. However, I think the positive is the Vita release won't take anywhere near as long as this update has taken.

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47 minutes ago, Hellstar said:

I'm not particularly for or against, but my opinion on the update is it shouldn't take as long as it has taken to get to this stage.

You're right, it probably shouldn't have taken this long under ideal circumstances but we don't know what really went on in the meantime, that's the thing :/

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Code is very finicky, especially when your fixing bugs and adding in content that didn't originally exist in the base game.  age's engines are especially notorious for how much of a pain they are to work with, I'm sure that even with the actual devs themselves with the actual tools helping them out, it was still full of lots of unexpected messes.  All it takes is changing one tiny line to completely throw everything else off.  Also keep in mind the team is busy working on other things at the same time

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I think part of the point is that we know that and can wait patiently like we did until yesterday. The problem is that Degica is expressing more interest in completing a port of the censored version or spin-offs of the game instead of finishing the original uncensored version; one is a stretch goal, the other is the pillar in which the KS was funded. We understand that the steam version has priority and we accept it because it's also a necessity for the uncensored version, and solving bugs there is solving bugs of the +18 version. However that does not apply to what is said in that tweet. If you consider the uncensored version to be the one you backed (which, considering the controversy and amount of threads about censorship is at least a decent percentage of backers), then what that tweet is saying is that Degica is gratuitously delaying the main objective of the KS for other secondary objectives.

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7 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

The problem is that Degica is expressing more interest in completing a port of the censored version or spin-offs of the game instead of finishing the original uncensored version

I'm sensing a distinct lack of empathy here.  Stretch goal or no, the Vita version is a tier that people could exclusively back the project for.  What you're basically saying is that your needs are more important than theirs, despite the fact that they've been waiting longer than you even to get the first title.  

Edited by Scars Unseen
Removed some of the vinegar. It's a bit late.

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The KS was for a PC version, the Vita version was a stretch goal, so giving priority to a stretch goal over the main goal doesn't look good. BUT, we live in a capitalist world, so giving priority to the Vita port make sense, since they can get more profit with it than with the patch.

They said the Vita port would take little time, since they already have a working Vita version, and the alt patch only change 2 scenes, so it should take less time than the Muvluv one (12 scenes).

And most importantly, we are talking about Alt, the steam version would be enough and a better choice for all the "softcore" first time reader.
 

 

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6 hours ago, Scars Unseen said:

I'm sensing a distinct lack of empathy here.  Stretch goal or no, the Vita version is a tier that people could exclusively back the project for.  What you're basically saying is that your needs are more important than theirs, despite the fact that they've been waiting longer than you even to get the first title.  

I could likewise return those words; in the end, prioritizing one over the other means prioritizing a type of backers over another. If the VITA has priority we're shafted, if we have priority the VITA backers are the ones that will have to wait. But the VITA was a stretch goal in comparison to the main funding objective, so by definition it was subordinated to fulfilling the main objective.

Honestly, I have zero problems with a Vita version (I actually backed an option for it!), but changing priorities mid-project is not only a terrible decision, but a slap to the face to the backers who agreed to fund the KS with the priorities as they were laid out in that page. This is changing the rules mid-game. And sure, there are plenty of reasons why Degica may have taken that decision but, borrowing FaceEater words, precisely because were in a capitalist world, the backers that put their money and trust in Degica also have the right to protest to what is a change to what they agreed (if it is not justified, like in this case). I don't have any illusions about changing this decision, but I as sure as hell I'm going to let my voice out that I believe it is a wrong and unfair one.

Edited by Marx-93

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2 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

I could likewise return those words; in the end, prioritizing one over the other means prioritizing a type of backers over another. If the VITA has priority we're shafted, if we have priority the VITA backers are the ones that will have to wait. But the VITA was a stretch goal in comparison to the main funding objective, so by definition it was subordinated to fulfilling the main objective.

You seem to have missed the part where the Vita backers don't have any of the Muv-Luv titles to play yet.  By shifting priorities to get Extra/Alternative out, they aren't putting the Vita backers first, they're catching up.  Keep in mind that they said back in Update #30 that the Vita version would be out a few months after the PC version.  We're watching "few" sail by us at this point, and it's good to hear that Degica is doing what they can do to make that up.

 

2 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

This is changing the rules mid-game.

To make up for their failure to meet expectations they set in June.

 

2 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

the backers that put their money and trust in Degica also have the right to protest to what is a change to what they agreed

Yes, I'm sure the Vita backers would be quite upset that they've had to wait 5 months and counting for any of the rewards they've backed the project for.

 

2 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

if it is not justified, like in this case

You mean you don't already have a version of Muv-Luv to read, and now with the 18+ content available should you choose to install it? 

 

2 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

I as sure as hell I'm going to let my voice out that I believe it is a wrong and unfair one.

I edited out some of my last comment because I wasn't sure it really applied, and I chalked it up to me needing sleep.  But you've kind of justified it with this comment.  Your idea of fairness, of right and wrong, seems to solely linked to what you want.  That's entitlement, pure and simple.  I only backed for the PC version(albeit at the $300 tier).  Moreover, I don't care about the 18+ content, so the biggest benefit to me would be if Degica focused on getting the main titles out without worrying about other versions or adult patches.  But you don't see me griping about the delays those cause because I understand that promises were made to the backers who put money in specifically for the Vita version as well as those who wouldn't have backed without knowing they were getting the 18+ content.  You seem not to understand that, or you simply don't care.

Either way, your complaints don't hold water.  You aren't the only person Degica is doing this for, and there are people that have been waiting for longer than you and me.

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Honestly, I feel that at this point this is simply becoming a discussion between @Scars Unseen and me, and not about the main matter on point. He does seem to argue that the I'm being entitled and that invalidates the whole argument (which, BTW, is an ad hominem). So I'll make this my last reply to him in order to not bloat the thread even more, and let others decide.

9 hours ago, Scars Unseen said:

You seem to have missed the part where the Vita backers don't have any of the Muv-Luv titles to play yet.  By shifting priorities to get Extra/Alternative out, they aren't putting the Vita backers first, they're catching up.  Keep in mind that they said back in Update #30 that the Vita version would be out a few months after the PC version.  We're watching "few" sail by us at this point, and it's good to hear that Degica is doing what they can do to make that up.

There are several problems with this. First, Update #33 specifies that: " As for PS Vita, we will begin the porting process once the PC version’s finalized, probably within the following month. We'll keep you posted!". Not only that forgoes any release date ("starting the porting"; porting it is not an easy and quick process), it also specifies the PC version being finalized. Now, you seem to think that this means July 15th, but to a lot of people "finalized" does not mean censored, riddled with bugs and with cropped art. This people have had to wait 4 months for something they constantly said was coming soon.

9 hours ago, Scars Unseen said:

To make up for their failure to meet expectations they set in June.

Yes, we waited 4 months and now we may have to wait the same time. That's completely meeting our expectations to reach another nebulous deadline that they may not even fail in the first place.

9 hours ago, Scars Unseen said:

Yes, I'm sure the Vita backers would be quite upset that they've had to wait 5 months and counting for any of the rewards they've backed the project for.

Yes, in this I agree, delays are painful. Which is why the point was never on the delays but instead on priorities. We had to wait 4 months while we expected 2 weeks. I hope the VITA users don't have the same treatment and have to wait 1 year and a half while they expected 3 months.

9 hours ago, Scars Unseen said:

You mean you don't already have a version of Muv-Luv to read, and now with the 18+ content available should you choose to install it? 

Surely, if the VITA version reaches their users by 2020 then at that time they must be perfectly happy even after the constant delays! Selfish VITA users, daring to make their voice heard instead of allowing Degica to spend resources to make the Android port! Pardon my sarcasm, but this was never about the present or me. I haven't played the game nor will until at least a year. I'm arguing that changing priorities mid-project will inevitably shaft one group of users. There is nothing more to it.

9 hours ago, Scars Unseen said:

I edited out some of my last comment because I wasn't sure it really applied, and I chalked it up to me needing sleep.  But you've kind of justified it with this comment.  Your idea of fairness, of right and wrong, seems to solely linked to what you want.  That's entitlement, pure and simple.  I only backed for the PC version(albeit at the $300 tier).  Moreover, I don't care about the 18+ content, so the biggest benefit to me would be if Degica focused on getting the main titles out without worrying about other versions or adult patches.  But you don't see me griping about the delays those cause because I understand that promises were made to the backers who put money in specifically for the Vita version as well as those who wouldn't have backed without knowing they were getting the 18+ content.  You seem not to understand that, or you simply don't care.

Either way, your complaints don't hold water.  You aren't the only person Degica is doing this for, and there are people that have been waiting for longer than you and me.

Again, exactly the same can be repeated at you. You seem to also think that what I'm arguing is exactly what I want; which again is wrong (even if the uncensored version reached earlier I probably won't be able to play it until 2018) , but you don't seem to care much about making assumptions. My idea of fairness is exactly what was on the original KS, because that was what we all agreed on when funding it; the closest to a signed contract we have. Changing priorities on that must forcibly shaft one group, by definition, just like it will help another. Sometimes it is justified, because that one group has already taken the blunt of all the problems. In this case a group that has constantly been forgotten and ignored (lack of updates for 2 months for the first time in the whole KS after releasing the game!? Surely coincidence!) will be shafted in exchange of a group which has suffered some nebulous delays of which we aren't even sure. Sure, if Degica comes and says to me "We messed up and if we don't change priorities the VITA version won't be out until winter next year!" I'll accept it. But there's been nothing to make it like that, while we've just had a precedent of waiting 4 months in theory while we had "high priority"; how much it will be while in "low priority"?

Edited by Marx-93

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i am angry about the vita version being pushed back another three months and also about not knowing when i will get the physical but it is better than waiting two years like i have for a album from english beat which got pushed back again because of some asshat called ranking roger 

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