Euphoric

Changes to OST / Music licensing problems

71 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

They have backer rewards to ship out, this is true, but at the same time, all of it was sold at a profit.

 

The cost to make the gift bag was 16.50 USD, the cost to ship it to me was 34800 JPY, and they asked 50 USD for it.
I know Americans are bad with math, but anyone can see there is no profit made with that.

 

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27 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

This is a blatant lie. It is the 92nd highest crowd-funded project of ALL TIME. Not just on KS.

We're dealing with businesses here. A lawsuit with a major record label could very well end up in disaster. Everyone will want a slice of the cake when it happens and everyone will take the fall. That's just how things are, we're not in Wonderland sadly.

Yes, it is a risk and it may not happen if it isn't brought to attention. But let's be serious here, the game is getting an official western release, which exposes it more to parties that would benefit greatly from such a process.

Are you saying you'd like your money to be given to lawyers and said record label in place of ixtl/âge, Degica and anyone who got involved in this ?

5 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Muv Luv is one of my favorite VNS ever, and I just want to see the best possible version available legally in the West

We all do but firing shots at whoever is in front of your gun's barrel won't make anyone cooperative.

I completely understand why you'd feel strongly about changes that may or may not make sense but the best we can do is to list said worries and basically give Degica ammunition so they can argue with the appropriate parties, mainly ixtl/âge. Would you be able to have an argument with them yourself ?

We invested so our voices should have weight, we're in agreement here. But if you can't trust Degica even just a little, why did you invest in the Kickstarter in the first place ? This shouldn't be mistaken for a mere preorder session. This isn't just about the money, right ?

6 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

I'm not trolling or being aggressive. I just want an open, and balanced dialogue, with facts, not fancy.

Then don't state it the way you did before because it sure doesn't come off that clearly. I wasn't trying to trigger you with my own words either but see what they just did, and for that I apologize.

An official statement may be in order if you need facts. Sure, I'm all for it as well actually. I'm sure things could have been handled more smoothly in parts but we're all human, mistakes are made.

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2 hours ago, Mkilbride said:

92nd. That's including every type of crowd-funding available. In the video game section...it's the 27th most funded. Doesn't sound like "Barely" to me.  This isn't including their paypal totals, either.  Stop acting like this game just barely made it. If they had only hit their initial goal, it'd still be coming to the West. They have backer rewards to ship out, this is true, but at the same time, all of it was sold at a profit. This game had already been made. They weren't re-creating the entire game over again, and using a text comparison machine, you can see the fan translation and the Official translation have a 94.7% likeness rating.  So it's not like they did a massive overhaul, either. They did touch it up and polish it, but seriously. Muv Luv is one of my favorite VNS ever, and I just want to see the best possible version available legally in the West. I know the reasons for why Songs are being removed, but I am sick of the developers posting as if we're "Lucky" it's coming at all, despite having one of the highest crowd-funded projects in HISTORY.  For a Western release. Not a new game.  I'd love see the original cost for making Muv Luv & Alternative. I bet it was less than the KS made. As the game overall has few backrounds / CGS.  Voice acting can cost, but at the time they were made, alot of these VAS were nobody. They're the most crowd-funded VN of all time on KS right now - by a good margin. Only F/SN I think, could break their record, if that ever happened.(Unlikely)

I'm pretty sure the first section is directed at me so....

Yep you're right. I apologize for my mistake.

As for the whole -using text comparison machine to see how similar the two translations are to one another- thing, i would strongly suggest reading it side by side to get a better sense of the work that was done to the script. I'll try to elaborate on this ,on a seperate post, once i'm off work  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mkilbride said:

They weren't re-creating the entire game over again, and using a text comparison machine, you can see the fan translation and the Official translation have a 94.7% likeness rating.  So it's not like they did a massive overhaul, either.

Source on that likeness rating? That seems awfully high considering all the talk of how the new text is a massive improvement from the old one.

Edited by David

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They weren't re-creating the entire game over again, and using a text comparison machine, you can see the fan translation and the Official translation have a 94.7% likeness rating.  So it's not like they did a massive overhaul, either.


(Staff/Helroius): I'm curious where you got that 94.7% number. Some of the individual scripts had likeness ratings as low as 2% or 3%.

If the script had needed less work, we would have released the game on schedule last March. Instead, we made the decision to delay, and chose to improve translation quality. The game has almost every line rewritten, 300+ images translated and edited to English, and the developers decided to add many features including image switching, even up to the last minute. The engine was made to work with touchscreen tablets—nobody knew about this implementation at all until it was demo'ed on one of their weekly Friday streams. There were many bugs like unvoiced scenes, particular scenes not playing at all, UI/song translation debates, and more, all of which needed to be carefully found and fixed. There were many items which took a lot of passing back and forth in order to get approved, and this can be stressful sometimes for the team. We really care about this game, and want it to be as good as possible.

There are thousands of Skype chat logs in the main editing group conversation, and I witnessed how the lines were carefully edited and discussed thoroughly. Have you fully read the Steam version? The team mentioned how Kei's personality are like night and day in comparison to the fan translation, and more accurate to the intended characterization in the JP version. Nuance and clarity have been improved across the board, characterization is improved, and Extra is actually very funny, now—we've heard this multiple times from fans who were surprised, because they didn't remember Extra being so good in the original translation.

Being delayed by months isn't something to be dismissed -- everyone, including the managers, needs to get paid, so going over schedule has huge implications. Say this game was meant to be released by March, and here we are, 4 months overdue. That means 4 more months where every Muv-Luv team member needs to be paid, and that includes Japan staff from both ixtl and age-soft working on the project.

What you said about "we could've done x" during Kickstarter—yes, there were many things we shouldn't have done because it just bloated the project scope and made the shipping, inventory management a lot expensive. But we can't cry over spilled milk, especially at this point, and can only carry on with the best of our abilities.

The effect of getting a million dollars on Kickstarter isn't also as helpful as you think. Like you, most companies we negotiate with tend to overcharge us for the same reason—"You're the most funded Visual Novel so you should pay us max price!" If you wanted a straight answer if we made any money on Kickstarter, the answer is no. The "profits" are just enough for developing the game and to make sure everyone is paid, and the rest are going toward rewards fulfillment.

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Everyone needs to chill down really. Any comment with even a hint of negativity can be blown out of context and used for negative PR (clickbait tabloid journalism) and i don't want that to impact Alternatives release.

@Mkilbride

 Most of the conflict here started from perceived passive aggressive text. Written words without tone can always be misinterpreted one way or the other but getting frustrated is hardly worth the effort. And the staff previously said it was never their intention. I mean hell what do they gain by being deliberately hostile towards the fans?

Edited by David

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8 hours ago, Klashvorn said:

An official statement may be in order if you need facts.

Honestly, not really.  We were told why the tracks got removed, and that's really all we're entitled to.  We're definitely not entitled to know the inner workings of their company or the financial or legal considerations that went into every single decision they made.  It's the Star Citizen argument all over again.  I've never seen a development process more open than that game, and yet any time an accusation is made - regardless of how baseless - people start demanding that they show their accounting books and accusing them of just running off with the money they took in.  The level of entitlement that people get when it comes to crowd funding is amazing in a certain way.

Certain tracks have been and are getting replaced.  We have been told why.  Those reasons are sensible, and they have been made with the assent and help of Ixtl and Age.  There's really no real discussion to be had on the topic, other than to give a critique of the tracks that are replacing the old.  This isn't like the 4:3 CG issue where the company is coming back and saying that they'll look into what can be done.  In this matter, what can be done has been done.  People still complaining in understanding of that aren't trying to improve the product.  They're just complaining.  

Degica has been more than reasonably responsive and accommodating throughout the translation and development process.  They've certainly been more so than some other localization companies I could name.  Seeing people attack them like this in light of that is something that makes me wonder why anyone bothers with us at all. 

Edited by Scars Unseen

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So I dunno how they managed this. Or what is causing this.

 

But when I load up the forums, I now hear Waruda.  I don't understand.  ANy topic, forum, close fire-fox, reopen,  come to the forums, it palys.

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10 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

So I dunno how they managed this. Or what is causing this.

 

But when I load up the forums, I now hear Waruda.  I don't understand.  ANy topic, forum, close fire-fox, reopen,  come to the forums, it palys.

Could you give us your system details? That's actually really strange, and I'm not getting it on my end.

The forum doesn't have a music feature, so there shouldn't be any sound.

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I restarted, and it still came back.  Now it seems gone since I made the post though. I have no clue why that was happening.

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Just now, Mkilbride said:

I restarted, and it still came back.  Now it seems gone since I made the post though. I have no clue why that was happening.

That's… really strange, but I'm glad it was resolved.

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Yeah I don't know how it was happening either. I felt like the devs were trolling me.

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15 minutes ago, Connor Krammer said:

Could you give us your system details? That's actually really strange, and I'm not getting it on my end.

The forum doesn't have a music feature, so there shouldn't be any sound.

Huh.. well it was cool while it lasted. Too bad i kind of liked it.

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3 minutes ago, StormVanguard said:

Huh.. well it was cool while it lasted. Too bad i kind of liked it.

Wait, it was happening to you too?

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If you post your system specs, I can look into it. I can't seem to reproduce it on my machine though, so I'm not sure how far I'll be able to get.

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1 minute ago, Connor Krammer said:

If you post your system specs, I can look into it. I can't seem to reproduce it on my machine though, so I'm not sure how far I'll be able to get.

The issue appeared to be with the site itself not sure what happened but i will leave it to imagination.

8 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Wait, it was happening to you too?

Yes, it was.

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I've checked with several other users, and none of them were able to observe the behaviour. Is it possible this error was elsewhere (e.g. a hidden YouTube page, autoplay music on a different tag, etc.)?

I've even skimmed the HTML of the page, and nothing has been altered. The time stamp for HTML edits on the back end also hasn't been updated since last January (from when we tweaked some widgets).

 

This is fairly baffling.

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1 minute ago, Connor Krammer said:

I've checked with several other users, and none of them were able to observe the behaviour. Is it possible this error was elsewhere (e.g. a hidden YouTube page, autoplay music on a different tag, etc.)?

I've even skimmed the HTML of the page, and nothing has been altered. The time stamp for HTML edits on the back end also hasn't been updated since last January (from when we tweaked some widgets).

 

This is fairly baffling.

I checked with my friend on Skype to make sure it wasn't anything on my end and sure enough he heard it as well.

There was also a thread in site feedback called "nice music."

This was the link used for the embed. http://puu.sh/q6tU0.mp3

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This could be some strange—and lottery-winningly unlikely—edge case involving an Ajax call and some dynamic code, but if it's no longer a problem I'll consider it resolved.

Let me know if it occurs again.

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10 minutes ago, Connor Krammer said:

This could be some strange—and lottery-winningly unlikely—edge case involving an Ajax call and some dynamic code, but if it's no longer a problem I'll consider it resolved.

Let me know if it occurs again.

There is some weirdness to the forums themselves and it honestly doesn't surprise me to hear that bad data got loaded into cache on some people's browsers. 

It most likely just fixed itself when the browser cleared it's cache. 

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On 7/18/2016 at 9:23 PM, Mkilbride said:

using a text comparison machine, you can see the fan translation and the Official translation have a 94.7% likeness rating

@Mkilbride So... do you have a source for that number? A dev already challenged your claim and said their numbers are around 2-3%. If you did it yourself then posting the method used along with a screenshot should be fine. For all we know the software you used may have been corrupted or something.

Edited by David

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On 18.7.2016 at 8:23 PM, Mkilbride said:

They weren't re-creating the entire game over again, and using a text comparison machine, you can see the fan translation and the Official translation have a 94.7% likeness rating. 

Citation, please.

Quote

So it's not like they did a massive overhaul, either.

If you read the Visual Novel itself, you would notice that the overhaul is rather extensive, if not massive.

Quote

Muv Luv is one of my favorite VNS ever

And yet you spell it incorrectly.
 

Quote

 

All people want is honest answers and to be treated like the customers they are, not beggars.

 

You are treated like a customer, if anything. No customer is entitled to information that a corporation is not willing to give out. All any customer is given is whatever information a company is willing to give out. While full transparency would be great, that is is nearly an impossible thing to realize in real world. How they do their trading and business often stays within the doors if not for anything else but to avoid bad PR. It's better to leave people guessing and wondering rather than confirm whatever their thoughts might be. What consumer does not know can't hurt them.

Quote

  We paid for a product, treat us as such.

You funded a product. You do not purchase anything through Kickstarter. The creators then does whatever it needs to realize the vision laid out, even if it requires changing the content, often will less enthusiastic response. If you want to be completely accurate, backers are not customers either. However, the position of a Kickstarter backer is far less than a backer in an actual business venture and the position is more in-line to a patron of arts, who supports a producer with something, in this case of money, to do whatever they want.

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14 minutes ago, Aalt said:

Citation, please.

If you read the Visual Novel itself, you would notice that the overhaul is rather extensive, if not massive.

And yet you spell it incorrectly.
 

You are treated like a customer, if anything. No customer is entitled to information that a corporation is not willing to give out. All any customer is given is whatever information a company is willing to give out. While full transparency would be great, that is is nearly an impossible thing to realize in real world. How they do their trading and business often stays within the doors if not for anything else but to avoid bad PR. It's better to leave people guessing and wondering rather than confirm whatever their thoughts might be. What consumer does not know can't hurt them.

You funded a product. You do not purchase anything through Kickstarter. The creators then does whatever it needs to realize the vision laid out, even if it requires changing the content, often will less enthusiastic response. If you want to be completely accurate, backers are not customers either. However, the position of a Kickstarter backer is far less than a backer in an actual business venture and the position is more in-line to a patron of arts, who supports a producer with something, in this case of money, to do whatever they want.

I actually purchased the product on Steam, so I did pay for a product.  Also you're absolutely silly. Kickstarter has been a virtual store since it's inception. Selling copies of the game outright is not funding shit. "Pay 25$ to get a cheap copy of the game" not "give 25$ so this game can be made" - Just like people who bought physical products.

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