Connor Krammer

Muv-Luv Feedback

488 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Randomacts said:

There is a setting (on by default) that claims to do 3D sound stuffs.. but I guess it must not work

Indeed everything just sounds closer or further now. Before it was more specific on a certain location and very playful as well.

And even more so the immersion the 3D sound provides during Alternative is outstanding when you can hear explosions and gunfire on the battlefield and people screaming so i think i will correct myself and say it is a reason for immense concern equal to Unlimited not having a disclaimer at the moment.

Edited by StormVanguard

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Too bad it couldn't somehow have true Surround Sound support.  I got a full setup of 5.1 real speakers, not PC speakers, and a Receiver.  Well, it'd have to have been recorded with SS in mind, or I coudl go Stereo & PLIIC, but it's not the same as native.

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Just now, Mkilbride said:

Too bad it couldn't somehow have true Surround Sound support.  I got a full setup of 5.1 real speakers, not PC speakers, and a Receiver.  Well, it'd have to have been recorded with SS in mind, or I coudl go Stereo & PLIIC, but it's not the same as native.

With headphones in the inclusion i honestly consider Muv-Luv to be the best experience i have had 3D sound wise.

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Headphones can't do proper 3D Sound. It doesn't matter what software / soundcard you use. It can sound acceptable...but until you have a 5.1 setup, calibrated with Auddesy MultiEQ XT for accoustics, you can never go back to cans.  I used to run a headset with CMSS3D and enjoyed it, but true surround sound, with real speakers, not Logitech or Bose....just so nice.  A Subwoofer actually making your floor vibrate during those intense scenes.

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16 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Headphones can't do proper 3D Sound. It doesn't matter what software / soundcard you use. It can sound acceptable...but until you have a 5.1 setup, calibrated with Auddesy MultiEQ XT for accoustics, you can never go back to cans.  I used to run a headset with CMSS3D and enjoyed it, but true surround sound, with real speakers, not Logitech or Bose....just so nice.  A Subwoofer actually making your floor vibrate during those intense scenes.

Cool story bro, but I fail to see how this adds anything to the original topic. This thread's alreaedy long enough and since I want our feedback to actually be read and acknowledged by the Muv-Luv Team, I'd be very thankful if yu could keep your offtopic rambling elsewhere.

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24 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Headphones can't do proper 3D Sound. It doesn't matter what software / soundcard you use. It can sound acceptable...but until you have a 5.1 setup, calibrated with Auddesy MultiEQ XT for accoustics, you can never go back to cans.  I used to run a headset with CMSS3D and enjoyed it, but true surround sound, with real speakers, not Logitech or Bose....just so nice.  A Subwoofer actually making your floor vibrate during those intense scenes.

Aside from the subwoofer issue, you're way off target.  The ears are actually pretty easy to trick, and headphones can simulate a lot more than loudspeakers can.  For one, you will never, ever get a 5.1 setup to convince you that someone is right next to you.  With headphones you can simulate pretty much any environment with the right input(and, of course, the right headphones).    

EDIT:  Fair point to @WS Eule.  I'll get back to the topic at hand,

Edited by Scars Unseen

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@WS EuleThank you, i have been holding my tongue quite honestly. His discussions are welcome but they would be more appropriate in a private message or a separate thread.

Edited by StormVanguard

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I just read something on Steam about ML Extra that really worries me, I don't know if it's the right thread to talk about it.
And I saw that @Connor Krammer (I think ? same avatar on Steam) answered to it, but I don't know if it's gonna be treated as a bug or not.

Spoiler

There's no Marimo ending anymore ? Did the route change ? Because for this route in the original game you have to more or less skip the other routes.

(feel free to delete my post if it's not the right place for that)

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Maybe that route wasn't in the All Ages version?  If so, it'd likely be added back in with the patch.

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@Scars_Unseen @ProffesseurM Pretty sure that's my friend Endy

I will have to ask him if this route was at least implied because technically her route would have still happened.

And no this is where you report bugs and such and screenshots are welcome if you have anything to report

 

Edited by StormVanguard

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I gotta say that so far I've been impressed with the steam release. The difference in writing quality is night and day, and kinda reminds me a little of grisaia (edit: probably due to Koestl's influence :)). Kei was already one of my favourite characters and this translation actually represents more accurately how I perceived her personality based on her VA, sprites and actions, hopefully this will mean there will soon be more fellow Kei fans! The only issue I've encountered so far is that clicking on the black bars doesn't move the dialogue along. This isn't really a big issue, just my muscle memory has me drag the cursor to the lower left corner to get it out of the way. Though if this is working as intended don't mind me I'll get used to it soon enough.

In regards to the cropping I don't mind as long as nothing actually important was cropped out, which I haven't seen this so far. As for the music I honestly don't care, the only reason people do care is cause it's different rather than if the new music is better or worse. I don't feel there was anything inherently great about Warudakumi that couldn't of been achieved by a different (original) soundtrack. 

So yeah keep up the great work guys, I can't wait for all the other works to be released :) !

Edited by Tits_Mcgruff

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13 hours ago, Mkilbride said:

It's not hacking. It's modding. It's part of PC Gaming. It has been for decades. There's nothing illegal about it.

There is nothing legal about writing a script that breaks into a proprietary software engine and ripping copyrighted assets, then further modifying those assets without consent from the copyright and IP holder, then releasing them back to public use with and through unofficial plugin. Fair use does apply, to an extent, but you would need to showcase you have worked under it and have not directly used existing assets as is or produced their imitation. PC modding has been a grey zone since day one at best. It is legally extremely risky to bypass protection measures and gaining control over those as well as copy any data gained from hacking the engine open or utilising. Trade secret law is a thing as is the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. You'd need support from the developer to have a freedom PC games often enjoy, as some developers are willing to give tools for modding purposes in the limits of Fair use. âge has not endorsed modding of their software.

3 hours ago, Mkilbride said:

Headphones can't do proper 3D Sound.

Depends completely on what headphone set and mixed audio you're using. If you want to argue about it not being true 3D because it's more about tricking the hearing, something that surround sounds itself is as well in the end, then you can e.g. pre-order OSSIC headphones that were designed for 3D listening with VR equipment or buy whatever headset is currently most recommended for your use. Multiple drivers in a headphone isn't anything new and has allowed surround sound headphones to exists for a good while now, and most importantly, do it well too.

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Regarding changed OST‚ please don't change the very final music that plays at the end of alternative. I won't name it but anyone who played the game should know what I'm talking about.

Spoiler

The scene in Final Extra just before the credits roll. Gotta have that blast from the past.

 

Edited by David

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1 hour ago, David said:

Regarding changed OST‚ please don't change the very final music that plays at the end of alternative. I won't name it but anyone who played the game should know what I'm talking about.

That's pretty dang vague but i have a feeling you're talking about Meiya's theme and since the first Gunbuster pastiche remained unchanged i'm gonna go out on a limb and say the second will as well because the originals were both created by the same composer, not to mention it took me awhile to make the comparison with Noriko's theme. It's almost its own piece entirely.

3 hours ago, Tits_Mcgruff said:

Kei was already one of my favourite characters and this translation actually represents more accurately how I perceived her personality based on her VA, sprites and actions, hopefully this will mean there will soon be more fellow Kei fans!

I swear the forum is overwhelmingly positive about this but you go anywhere else and it's the complete opposite.

Also i hear about Kei a lot but how does everyone feel about our bratty savior? I haven't read anything about Takeru so far or anyone else for that matter.

Edited by StormVanguard

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25 minutes ago, StormVanguard said:

That's pretty dang vague but i have a feeling you're talking about Meiya's theme and since the first Gunbuster pastiche remained unchanged i'm gonna go out on a limb and say the second will as well because the originals were both created by the same composer, not to mention it took me awhile to make the comparison with Noriko's theme. It's almost its own piece entirely.

Actually,

Spoiler

I was talking about the Muv Luv theme that plays after he returns to the world of Extra, just before the game ends and credits roll (hence 'at the end of alternative'). But keeping Meiya's theme in is also a good idea.

 

Edited by David

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I was hoping to avoid this, but as it seems like you're quite dissatisfied with these differences, I'd just like to make myself clear.

I worked harder on Ayamine than any other character, with Meiya being a distant second. I discussed her character at great length with the rest of the editing team (koestl, Sachibelle) who agreed she was sorely lacking in the original (much of what @Tits_Mcgruff says is true - she was not adequately translated at all, nor was her true personality properly conveyed), and we worked as a team to very carefully construct virtually every line of hers. This new translation contains many adaptations (not improvisations) that aim to retain the intent of her character - highly, highly sarcastic and witty, lots of puns and plays-on-words, and a huge troll - and the team is very happy with what we've done with her. (To be fair to your point, though, you're right that we took the most liberties with her in our attempts to adapt, and I can definitely see why you might feel this was an artificial insertion of contextually inappropriate content.) Both Takeru and Ayamine use extremely large amounts of Japanese slang that we've decided to adapt with English (American) slang, as this is, we feel, the best way to present both of their characters to a non-Japanese speaking audience faithfully.  

We are, however, aware that plenty of people more familiar with her through the old translation and/or who don't appreciate a more westernized localization (a la Persona) will not be keen on these changes. I'm very sorry to hear that you find these decisions so off-putting, but with all due respect, I've worked just about seven days a week for almost eight months just to bring this script to a point I'm satisfied with. While I'm always open to hearing concerns on individual lines for accuracy, typos, or other specific concerns, an all-encompassing change like this rewriting so many lines of character dialogue at this point is really not something the team is interested in doing, and we do stand behind our decisions for the localization direction. We've put intent first, essentially, and while I'd be happy to expound on why each and every choice was made the way that it was, I simply don't have the time if we're going to get Alternative done and polished up to a level of quality we're proud of.

I'm absolutely listening to fan concerns like yours, and while they do make me feel a little sad, I kind of knew this was going to be a particularly divisive issue, as it always is with any drastic change. However, I'm not much of a translator if I'm willing to fold on my localization philosophy within a week of launch, and I guarantee we considered all of the things you're mentioning now during the initial developmental process for our editing procedures. Please, do feel free to voice your concerns, and I guarantee we'll read them, and perhaps it'll give me a better foundation upon which to base my rationale for future translations. But I'm sorry, a "poll" or something to induce a huge time-consuming fundamental change just isn't in the cards, and I'm so, so sorry that, with you being a huge supporter of all we've done, I've made a decision that disappoints you. I sincerely mean that.

I made decisions that I felt allowed me to write the best possible script I could write, and used the rest of the team's input and feedback from QC to further shape the script into the final product you see today. Some sacrifices to the sanctity of the Japanese setting were made in the interest of what we feel is greater flow and relatability, simultaneously hoping this would make the game more appealing to a wider audience. I can't really say anything else in my defense here, as the nature of being a writer in any capacity means subjecting yourself to these kinds of criticisms. I take full responsibility on behalf of the team for this, but whether that responsibility manifests itself as a scarlet letter or a badge of honor is a discrimination left entirely in the eye of the beholder.

Your concerns have been, and are still being, noted. They are completely valid - don't ever think they aren't - and I just wanted to express my reasoning as to why they haven't been more formally addressed, so that you don't assume you're being ignored.

Thanks for your time and consideration, and for your unbridled passion for the game that means so much to all of us. I know you only suggest these things because you want it to be the best it can be, and I can't apologize enough for us having a few differing viewpoints here.

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@evan  Personally, I love everything I've seen in the new translation, so don't think that your hard work has gone unappreciated.  On the whole, the official translation reads far more naturally than the old one, and I hope that Degica retains the same translation team for all Muv-Luv related works moving forward.  Sometimes it's easy to forget to leave positive feedback rather than just focus on the things you disagree with or think could be improved, but I'd say that the current Steam rating shows that the majority of us are with you on this.

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@Scars Unseen Thank you so much for the kind words.

To be sure, I have definitely heard a lot of the positivity and praise as well, and I considered mentioning that, but it felt improper and kind of petty to do in a response to @StormVanguard's concerns, which represent an equally valid opinion on the matter.

Don't think the team hasn't been following along with all of the reviews, discussions, and social media hype. We're still reeling from the overwhelming response, and we really can't thank you guys enough for your love and support. To quote a certain Meiya line: 

"You have my heartfelt gratitude... You truly do..."

(edit: or Amaterasu version, for those who prefer:)

"I give you my deepest thanks......I mean it......"

(sorry, couldn't help myself :P)

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@evan

I'm sure you are aware that most of us haven't complained and even just keep praising your translation. The issues most of us bring up are almost all technical related. 

I figure someone attempting to tear apart your translation though likely feels like someone feeding your baby to the beta. =p

Edited by Randomacts

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@evan We're both two very passionate guy's aren't we? Haha

Wow and just like that you made a fan of me, everyone at Degica really is quite the amazing group of people. You guy's are exactly what i have searched for in the community more like comrades or family much like squad 207 or a-01 a message seemingly everyone seemed to miss more wanting to lash out at a fellow fan than embrace them. Say nothing more i no longer have any concerns and wholeheartedly feel your passion in your work and equally in the people satisfied and or dissatisfied with it. I will continue to support the series and its universe regardless of what i may or may not turn my nose at simply because i feel your open honesty will pour into your work and convey to a larger audience which is the entire reason i supported the Kickstarter in the first place.

To be quite frankly honest i will just lay it on the table and say i have been a little worried with your open passion towards Kimi ga Nozomu Eien where as both of us have a burning soul it's for two different series entirely with time drawing near and your attention on Muv-luv and KGN at the same time. I didn't have these thoughts however until after re-reading Muv-Luv and discovering the issues pointed out across the internet so by no means was i feeling pessimistic while reading. But now i can see that couldn't be further from the truth.

And Evan i sincerely apologize for not giving you the full credit you deserve for your work and i normally jump on people for this.

You seem like a very awesome guy Evan and i thank you for your time that i quite frankly feel i don't deserve at this point.

You have inspired me to make an effort to further reach out to the Japanese side of Muv-Luv as well as fully understand your work so i can fully enjoy both sides of the coin.

Words can not express my gratitude to the people at Degica for opening the doors to us when we use to feel despair was our only option.

Words can not express the absolute joy i feel for the future that awaits us.

And words can not express my gratitude to you Evan for being placed on this project.

Thank you, and i'm sure there's plenty more who feel the same as I.

1 hour ago, Scars Unseen said:

but I'd say that the current Steam rating shows that the majority of us are with you on this.

The Steam rating has been a complete surprise and doing far better than i anticipated. I mean Extra & Unlimited of all things actually has a very positive rating, this is phenomenal!xD

Edited by StormVanguard

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The only negative ratings on Steam for it so far(Few, it's 99% positive), are about the removal of the sex scenes.  I don't count those reviews myself. The person knows Steam...you can't have 18+ content on there...well besides Yuri, Steam allows Yuri sex VNs for some reason...kinda unfair honestly. Alot of people bring up "But the Witcher has sex scenes!" Yes. Yes it does. However! It does not show genitals or bodily fluids, and that is the main difference. Steam is 100% against those.   Considering Steam contains the largest population of gamers on Earth, ranging from all ages, I doubt we'll ever see this lifted, without some kind of 18+ Only section where you have to verify your Social Security Number to prove it, and then no game would bother, as it'd see less sales anyways.

 

Tried getting it going a little in r/gaming, but it's tough to break into with VN.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/4tp352/japan_is_so_far_ahead_of_us_muvluv/

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6 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

The only negative ratings on Steam for it so far(Few, it's 99% positive), are about the removal of the sex scenes.

Well 2 of them are due to the H scenes and say they will update when the patch is out and one if them is salt because the OST track was changed..

Another is hilarious http://steamcommunity.com/id/deathinjuniper/recommended/449830/ imo

And one that was just posted within the last couple hours is the first actual negative review. 

But overall those are really good numbers for review wise on a game. 

Edited by Randomacts

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Somehow it turned into a feminist discussion. Great.  The one actual negative review makes some good points, honestly. I'm sad to see people downvoting it so hard, because it's an honest review.

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@evan This translation is one of the best i've seen a long time. It has the nuance of the Japanese script well translated into English (which is damn hard because some phrases and words have no direct opposite that sound right in spoken English).

 

 

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10 hours ago, Mkilbride said:

Somehow it turned into a feminist discussion. Great.  The one actual negative review makes some good points, honestly. I'm sad to see people downvoting it so hard, because it's an honest review.

I can only wonder what they'd think of the pilot suits lol

 

15 hours ago, StormVanguard said:

I swear the forum is overwhelmingly positive about this but you go anywhere else and it's the complete opposite.

Also i hear about Kei a lot but how does everyone feel about our bratty savior? I haven't read anything about Takeru so far or anyone else for that matter.

Well I personally mentioned Kei because she's one of my top 3 characters and probably the most drastic improvement translation wise for any character. But that doesn't mean she's the only one, the new translation has helped all the characters. Takeru, Meyia, even the three idiots are much more entertaining to read.

Takeru now reads like a normal teenage guy rather than, to put it bluntly a complete social retard. Sure he's still pretty immature and bitches, but now he words his thoughts and speech in a way that sounds like a real person. 

The three idiots are still kinda annoying, but at the same time they can be pretty entertaining. When I first read the fan translation the only time I enjoyed any scene with the idiots was when Tsukuyomi would call them out and hit them. With the official translation it's no longer frustrating to listen to them speak and they come across as stupid yet cunning rather that completely retarded.

Meyia's translation improvements are a little harder for me to describe, but the best way I can explain it is that I feel she no longer comes across as ignorant and full of herself but rather sheltered and determined. 

(Btw this is just based on what I've seen in extra so far, my 2nd semester for uni started this week so I've not been able to read as much as I'd like)

But hey this is just my interpretation of what I'm reading. Evan and the rest of the team could of been aiming for a completely different direction for each of the characters, but that's the thing with art/literature/etc. everyone's free to see it their own way. 

Edited by Tits_Mcgruff
typo

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