Connor Krammer

Muv-Luv Feedback

490 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, evan said:

One potential idea put forth early on was the following:

Have the Unlimited title screen transition hidden until a user clicks on the title, at which point a one-time warning pop-up will display, explaining the intended reading order and potential side effects of first-timers choosing to read UL first. If the user selects "OK," then the title transition is unlocked and the game functions identically to how it does currently. Alternatively, this pop-up would (ideally) not appear at all if the original clear conditions for UL were met prior to selecting it, thus "unlocking" it the original way.

Is this what you are suggesting, @Scars Unseen? Or would you prefer it to be more hidden than that, with a Quick-Unlock button hidden away in the options menu for those who want it, with the same warning dialogue?

All of your feedback is being collected, thanks!

Although the first option would work (and is very similar to what I have been saying is a easy way to 'solve' our issue for awhile now I don't think that is exactly what he meant.

I believe he wanted to have unlimited unlock hidden in a menu and then pop up the warning ect when you hit the unlock thing like the second option... sort of.. (he replied now.. so just refer to his comment)

Edited by Randomacts

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@evanMother of god i love this idea! This even resolves the issue of the background.

Edited by StormVanguard

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28 minutes ago, Ian said:

I have not played Muv Luv, but I do feel strongly about the unlockable Unlimited. Since the original game requires clearing Extra first, I think it's very clear that's how the game is meant to be played. However, I don't think it's fair to force this onto the player! Some players may not be interested in both routes, given how different they are. It's always been physically possible to read a printed book's chapters out of order, and I think visual novels deserve the same kind of freedom. The developers and publishers do have one responsibility, and that is to prevent customers from deviating from the intended order by accident.

I understand that it may seem invasive to lock someone out of the whole story just because they may not like this or that character.

But you have to understand that, in storytelling, a relationship or connection must be established between the reader/player/watcher *and the characters*. I don't want to enter into much detail if you haven't completed the story, but I believe that without having read the main two routes (if not all like I did), your feelings towards said characters during Alternative may not have developed enough to make an impact on you when... "shit hits the fan".

*Edited for clarification*

Edited by Maperius

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@Tetho My intention with that suggestion isn't to make assumptions on the reader's intelligence, but to completely preserve the original experience(as much as one can with the sci-fi aspects being so heavily utilized in advertising) while still leaving a way for those who already know about Unlimited to bypass route enforcement.  

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For a warning dialogue, would you prefer something simple, or something more in-depth? Just for the sake of argument, we still need to collect more feedback on this.

Simple:

PLEASE NOTE:

Muv-Luv Unlimited should be played after completing

Muv-Luv Extra for full enjoyment of the game's story.

Do you still want to unlock Muv-Luv Unlimited?

In-Depth:

 

WARNING

 

This will automatically unlock Muv-Luv Unlimited, the second part of the Muv-Luv story, without having to satisfy the normal clear conditions in Muv-Luv Extra to do so. This option is intended for returning players who have already experienced Muv-Luv Extra and wish to skip directly to Muv-Luv Unlimited. We highly recommend that all newcomers first complete Muv-Luv Extra before moving on to the rest of the series, as the story is built upon the presumption that the reader has followed the intended playing order. Many significant plot points will make little sense without the necessary context. In order to get the most out of the Muv-Luv experience, you will want to play Muv-Luv Extra first.


Are you sure you want to proceed?

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@evan  Personally, I prefer the in depth warning, though if you get too verbose, it's possible that people just won't read it.

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Scars Unseen > Seriously who today will begin Muv-Luv without knowing the genre shift it undergoes? I mean we're now 13 years after ML's release, 10 years after Alternative's release, the TSF are everywhere on the promotional materials, there's been two TV anime with the TSF being prominently figured in it... Most of the people who read Muv-Luv started it because of this shift, in fact. And even if fans like to pretend you can still be surprised by it, nobody will ever be.

You can't dive into Muv-Luv without knowing it nowadays, this spoiler has become public domain. It's like watching Star Wars without knowing that Darth Vader is Luke's father, it's nearly impossible. Don't fool yourself.

Edited by Tetho

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@evan In-Depth definitely.

37 minutes ago, Scars Unseen said:

@evan  Personally, I prefer the in depth warning, though if you get too verbose, it's possible that people just won't read it.

Scars however makes a good point here i was actually thinking about.

Edited by StormVanguard

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@Ian

On side note.. I do strongest suggest that if you haven't read muv luv that you are very careful around these discussions.  The best of us try our best to not have spoilers but it is impossible to have feedback without some.

Please enjoy the VN without getting yourself spoiled too much

1 minute ago, evan said:

For a warning dialogue, would you prefer something simple, or something more in-depth? Just for the sake of argument, we still need to collect more feedback on this.
 

-snip-

I think we need something in between and you didn't actually say what 'complete' is in that warning. Saying to do the route with Meiya and Summika like it was or something (but worded much better then I am) would be how I would state it

1 minute ago, Tetho said:

Scars Unseen > Seriously who today will begin Muv-Luv without knowing the genre shift it undergoes? I mean we're now 13 years after ML's release, 10 years after Alternative's release, the TSF are everywhere on the promotional materials, there's been two TV anime with the TSF being prominently figured in it... Most of the people who read Muv-Luv started it because of this shift, in fact. And even if fans like to pretend you can still be surprised by it, nobody will ever be.

You can't dive into Muv-Luv without knowing it nowadays, this spoiler has become public domain. It's like watching Star Wars without knowing that Darth Vader is Luke's father, it's nearly impossible.

I don't think you realize how niche visual novels are. Most people even anime fans know nothing of it.

Also this

ten_thousand.png

 https://xkcd.com/1053/

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3 minutes ago, Scars Unseen said:

@evan That wouldn't be a bad way to do it, with the one downside being that the foreknowledge that Unlimited exists in the first place can take away from the kind of surprise that @Maperius experienced, though of course, new readers would have to somehow miss all the advertising for it to truly be a surprise.  Nonetheless, that would be a big improvement over the current situation.  My own suggestion was more akin to your second suggestion, with the option tucked away in the options menu.

Muv-Luv was my second VN right after Katawa Shoujo, so my lack of experience may be a major factor.

Getting into Muv-Luv I vaguely read about the mecha part of it and did not think much more about it. When I finished my first route It had me scratching my head of the lack of robots it promised, but oh well I just kept reading until the aforementioned event happened.

I feel the sensation of accomplishment from reading all the points of view possible and being rewarded by a whole new world of possibilities is "worth fighting for".

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@Tetho But that really shouldn't be our assumption to make.  My suggestions are for the potential reader who does go in blind.  And for those that don't, the option would be there.

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That's the thing, because VN fans are a niche into the anime fandom, virtually everyone in it knows about it. Even if it is because they've seen a promo art fro the animes.

The other day I was talking about how excited I was about the steam release with friends and one of them said (major Alternative spoil) 

Spoiler

"Ho you're talking about the one with the woman whose head is being eaten by a monster, right?"

That's how deep it runs. The sole thing he knew about Muv-Luv was this precise story point.

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1 hour ago, evan said:

In regards to "dude" and the sfx - I won't be debating localization direction here, as I know that plenty of people will not appreciate some aspects of the direction we've chosen. I stand behind every one of my decisions, but your feedback has been noted. As I said in that bullet point, though, I was in this instance referring to the accuracy of the lines, not slang/verbal flairs.

Sorry but I don't really get this part.
Does that mean we can't give feedback about the localization, for example if we think there's too much slang used, or like i read a bit above in this thread that the dialogues feel too westernized ? Or that we can talk about it but that won't change anything anyway ?

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@Tetho  Having seen people that have been spoiled already isn't an excuse for us to spoil people now and in the future.  And isn't one of the things that VN fans always talk about that we want to expand the niche.  If everyone who reads VNs now are the only people who ever will, VNs are dead.

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1 minute ago, Maperius said:

Muv-Luv was my second VN right after Katawa Shoujo, so my lack of experience may be a major factor.

Getting into Muv-Luv I vaguely read about the mecha part of it and did not think much more about it. When I finished my first route It had me scratching my head of the lack of robots it promised, but oh well I just kept reading until the aforementioned event happened.

I feel the sensation of accomplishment from reading all the points of view possible and being rewarded by a whole new world of possibilities is "worth fighting for".

I actually got into visual novels the same route as you did with KS --> Muv Luv ... Funnily enough that was also before I got into anime but that is getting off topic.

It was 4 or 5 years ago but I'm sure  the spoilers were very well known in the visual novel community..but I knew nothing other then the fact that the VN was labled 'genre shift' and basically was told to "shut up, read nothing, and play"

I will also urge everyone to consider the fact that we muv luv has entered a more mainstream in the English side of things market now that it is on steam. I would expect that once we get a good push going with people buying it a majority of those people will not know much about the game unless they get spoiled in the process of looking at it.

 

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@evan I prefer In-Depth version, but agreeing on Scars Unseen idea about not getting too verbose. 

@Tetho Well, better safe than sorry I suppose. In fact, I do come across some newcomers in other forums that aren't aware of Unlimited's setting.

Edited by Svenhent

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15 minutes ago, evan said:

For a warning dialogue, would you prefer something simple, or something more in-depth? Just for the sake of argument, we still need to collect more feedback on this.

Simple:

PLEASE NOTE:

Muv-Luv Unlimited should be played after completing

Muv-Luv Extra for full enjoyment of the game's story.

Do you still want to unlock Muv-Luv Unlimited?

In-Depth:

 

WARNING

 

This will automatically unlock Muv-Luv Unlimited, the second part of the Muv-Luv story, without having to satisfy the normal clear conditions in Muv-Luv Extra to do so. This option is intended for returning players who have already experienced Muv-Luv Extra and wish to skip directly to Muv-Luv Unlimited. We highly recommend that all newcomers first complete Muv-Luv Extra before moving on to the rest of the series, as the story is built upon the presumption that the reader has followed the intended playing order. Many significant plot points will make little sense without the necessary context. In order to get the most out of the Muv-Luv experience, you will want to play Muv-Luv Extra first.


Are you sure you want to proceed?

This is nice, I prefers the In-Depth warning, Personally I'm going to play the whole game as I did before: finish all Extra routes, then do Unlimited. 

Also, the menu transition from Extra to Unlimited was awesome, If I recall correctly the image burns down and it is replaced by Unlimited as the music changes to Alternative menu music. It's been some time and I don't have the original installed to check it out. But that the overall feel I had.

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@ProfesseurM The second, I'd imagine.  Technical changes are one thing, and actual translation errors are as well.  But characterization style was a deliberate choice made by the translation team, and I doubt very much that they are going to go through the entire visual novel and change every little thing that people want to disagree with that isn't even wrong in the first place.  There is nothing inherently more accurate about "man" rather than "dude" in Takeru's characterization.  

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@Tetho I think there's an overall message that people either miss or forget about not even putting spoilers into consideration here.

Which you wouldn't get just reading Unlimited and Alternative is showcased by the existence of Extra putting the reader into a false sense of security making them believe the message is something it clearly isn't.

And that message being Life is a harsh mistress and not everything is set in stone. The happy go lucky life we thought once was a safe environment was really a lie and a brief moment of existence before the reality with Alterverse slaps Takeru and the readers in the face.

This is really why it should be detrimental for newcomers to read Extra first.

 

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Maybe something along the line of

"Muv-Luv Unlimited is the second portion of the series. We strongly recommend playing through Muv-Luv Extra at least once before venturing into Unlimited. Do you wish to continue? Yes/No "

 The purpose of this warning is to just inform people that Extra should be played before Unlimited. I dont see the need to tell newcomers the intent behind why it was unlocked in a warning message.

Edited by Jawer

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6 minutes ago, Tetho said:

That's the thing, because VN fans are a niche into the anime fandom, virtually everyone in it knows about it. Even if it is because they've seen a promo art fro the animes.

The other day I was talking about how excited I was about the steam release with friends and one of them said (major Alternative spoil) 

I personally believe that is just our perception of what is 'normal' being warped. I don't believe that the anime viewer, let alone gamer knows about muv luv due to how niche visual novels have been until recently with steam allowing them on and starting to push them. 

In fact I have been on and off mentioning Muv Luv on anime related IRCs and only a few people who knew what muv luv was responded while I did get a bunch of "what is muv luv" from people who I talk to all the time and I know they aren't trolling.

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Scars Unseen > What I'm saying is that you're fooling yourself believing people will come and read Muv-Luv for the absurd harem comedy. Because it's been said everywhere that's its bad and the redeeming value of the series is in its SF parts, and more precisely in Alternative, whose visuals have robots and monsters everywhere.
I understand what you'retrying to say, but let's face the idea of someone walking blind into the novel a fantasy and nothing more. I mean look at the steam store page for the game, if Âge and Degica wanted to protect the surprise they would have done is in order to. But instead we've got a trailer and screenshots shouting to our face "And then ROBOTS, MONSTERS AND A BRAIN IN A JAR!".

Even Âge in Japan now longer tries to hide anything. Don't be more catholic than the Pope by forcing people to mess with the game files for this.

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1 minute ago, StormVanguard said:

 

@Tetho I think there's an overall message that people either miss or forget about not even putting spoilers into consideration here.

Which you wouldn't get just reading Unlimited and Alternative is showcased by the existence of Extra putting the reader into a false sense of security making them believe the message is something it clearly isn't.

And that message being Life is a harsh mistress and not everything is set in stone. The happy go lucky life we thought once was a safe environment was really a lie and a brief moment of existence before the reality with Alterverse slaps Takeru and the readers in the face.

This is really why it should be detrimental for newcomers to read Extra first.

 

THANK YOU you voiced my opinion In a more concise way than I could. English is not my first language but this explanation sums up what I was trying to say about being forced to play Extra before Unlimited.

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11 minutes ago, Randomacts said:

I would expect that once we get a good push going with people buying it a majority of those people will not know much about the game unless they get spoiled in the process of looking at it.

Anyone who buys this will have seen the Steam page, which spoils the twist.

Edited by Ian

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1 minute ago, Tetho said:

Scars Unseen > What I'm saying is that you're fooling yourself believing people will come and read Muv-Luv for the absurd harem comedy. Because it's been said everywhere that's its bad and the redeeming value of the series is in its SF parts, and more precisely in Alternative, whose visuals have robots and monsters everywhere.
I understand what you'retrying to say, but let's face the idea of someone walking blind into the novel a fantasy and nothing more. I mean look at the steam store page for the game, if Âge and Degica wanted to protect the surprise they would have done is in order to. But instead we've got a trailer and screenshots shouting to our face "And then ROBOTS, MONSTERS AND A BRAIN IN A JAR!".

Even Âge in Japan now longer tries to hide anything. Don't be more catholic than the Pope by forcing people to mess with the game files for this.

tbh Extra is actually pretty good now with the new translation. If people go into it without people told that it sucks they most likely will like it.

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Anyone who buys this will have seen the Steam page, which spoils the twist.

And on the torrent page (oh lets be bloody honest guys most of us who played the fan version was from a torrent) had a picture of it but I didn't think much of it until I got to unlimited and I was like "holy shit that is what that was" 

 

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