Connor Krammer

Muv-Luv Feedback

489 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, ProfesseurM said:

Just imagine if it was another character (voiced) talking, or if Takeru was voiced.
You would hear Takeru saying "delicious" (told in a Japanese way) & read something in French ? No, because that would make no sense, it would be translated as "delicious".
It's a "VOST"/subbed game, i.e. the translation is a support to understand what the character says in its original language.

And in the original language(Japanese), Takeru is using another language(English) for emphasis. If the Japanese is translated to English, it's weird to leave the English as English and remove the emphasis. If the text as a whole were translated into some other language, or Takeru had used a word from some language besides English, then it would be fine to keep it the same, since the emphasis would still be there. 

While this doesn't apply in this instance, there are also plenty of instances where Japanese uses an English loanword, but it has a completely different meaning. Just because you hear something that sounds English, doesn't mean that's what they're actually trying to say. I'd rather they translate the intent of the word choice, rather than be strict to what the voice may say. 

Spoiler

Some examples
English loan-word - closer meaning

mansion - apartment
(a woman with good) style - (a woman with good) proportions, curves, etc. 
bitch - a promiscuous woman; more along the lines of sexuality, not attitude

Even if I hear a Japanese voice say one of the words on the left, that doesn't mean I should see that word in English subs. 

There is a way of keeping the English word in place while keeping the emphasis, which I've seen in other translations (Umineko comes to mind). Use something like angled brackets (ie. <delicious>) to keep the word as is, while also showing that his word choice is unusual. There might need to be a note somewhere to indicate why that word is emphasized. This is the best way if there is an actual reason why it needs to be in English (some sort of wordplay, a plot-relevant clue, part of a character's background, etc.) I don't think there's any special meaning beyond emphasis for Takeru's "delicious," so I don't get why it matters that much that the translation strictly follows the script, as long as the intent gets across. 

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Is there a thread or something when they announce patches and updates?

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Here are the wording, grammar, and formatting issues I noticed during Ayamine's Route (listed in chronological order). This is the final part in my "nitpicky criticism" series for Extra (5 of 5).

True to its name, some of these are really nitpicky, so be sure to take them with a huge grain of salt.

I apologize in advance if there's any overlap between these corrections and others that may have been posted.

Let me know if you spot any issues (broken links, typos, dubious suggestions, etc.) and I'll try to fix them as best I can.

I'll be sure to post any similar issues I find as I read through Muv-Luv Unlimited.

You can find my comments on the other four routes here:

Meiya (Part 1): http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/566-muv-luv-feedback/&page=13

Tama (Part 2): http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/566-muv-luv-feedback/&page=14

Sumika (Part 3): http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/566-muv-luv-feedback/&page=16

Chizuru (Part 4): http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/566-muv-luv-feedback/&page=16

@Rashala: My guess is that they'd announce something like that through the Kickstarter page. They might also provide that information on Muv-Luv's web page, although I'm not sure how frequently it's updated.

Spoiler

Ayamine’s Route (In Chronological Order)


First Rooftop Lunch

1) “Lucrative”

http://imgur.com/MFM0Wzl

“Weeell now, this turned out to be quite the lucrative endeavor for me. Guess coming to the roof was the right choice, after all.”

The term ‘lucrative’ is typically used in reference to financial profit as opposed to a generally beneficial set of circumstances. Merriam-Webster corroborates this, defining ‘lucrative’ as “producing money or wealth.”

On an unrelated note, the comma preceding ‘after all’ is unnecessary.

There also seems to be a missing ‘I’ at the beginning of the second sentence (unless Takeru was being extremely informal, which is a distinct possibility).

Suggested Changes:

“Weeell now, this certainly worked out in my favor. I guess coming to the roof was the right choice after all.”

2) A Realist’s Perspective

http://imgur.com/u2ffsib

“…It is impossible to bring peace to everyone, from a realist perspective.”

First off, the comma is unnecessary. Second, the phrase ‘a realist perspective’ is arguably grammatically incorrect in this context. While there is certainly such a thing as a ‘realist perspective,’ this particular variation of the phrase usually crops up in academic writing. When describing the perspective of an individual who espouses such beliefs, however, it is more appropriate to refer to it as a ‘realist’s perspective.’ Doing so places the emphasis on the individual’s perspective as opposed to the monolithic philosophical concept of realism. In this particular case, Ayamine is obliquely saying that she’s a realist, so ‘realist’s’ would be more appropriate.

Suggested Changes:

“…It is impossible to bring peace to everyone from a realist’s perspective.”

“…It is impossible to bring peace to everyone from a realist’s point of view.”

3) A Pessimist’s Perspective

http://imgur.com/Wbv7BPD

“Sounds more like a pessimist perspective to me. Let’s try this. You haven’t met Meiya yet, right? Come to class, and I’ll introduce you.”

This one is essentially a continuation of my previous point, although it relates to a pessimist’s perspective as opposed to a realist’s perspective.

When it comes to the next three sentences, there are a few minor, extremely nitpicky issues. Grammatically, it’s broken up into three terse sentences, which interrupts the flow of the text. Consolidating the latter three sentences into two sentences alleviates this problem, creating a line that reads better as a whole.

The comma in the final sentence is also unnecessary. Worse, it negatively affects the pace of the sentence.

Suggested Changes:

“Sounds more like a pessimist’s perspective to me. Hold on, you haven’t met Meiya yet, have you? How about this: come to class and I’ll introduce you.”

“Sounds more like a pessimist’s point of view to me. Hold on, you haven’t met Meiya yet, have you? How about this: come to class and I’ll introduce you.”


Valgern-On Stage Select (Ayamine’s Date)

http://imgur.com/ZYVugUR

Arcade Screen: “Reef Space”

English Subtitles: “Skyscape Submerged”

Ideally the “onscreen” text (i.e. arcade screen) should be consistent with the subtitles (and vice versa). This may not be feasible, but I felt it was worth pointing out.

Rlranft has already touched on the unusual English translation for the arcade instructions quite thoroughly in one of his posts, so I won’t reiterate his concerns here.


Valgern-On Defeat (Ayamine's Date)

1) “Injured Pride”

http://imgur.com/PXqCYlB

“Please stop trying to demolish what little pride I have left…” (Takeru)

While this makes sense, it doesn’t sound natural in English. The word ‘demolish’ is typically used in relation to buildings as opposed to individuals, although Oxford’s US Dictionary also defines it as “comprehensively refuting (an argument or its proponent)” or to “overwhelmingly defeat (a player or team).” Neither of the latter two definitions apply in this context, however.

Putting that aside, there are actually some solid colloquial expressions that would work as alternatives, namely: to ‘injure one’s pride,’ to ‘hurt one’s pride,’ or to ‘damage one’s pride.’

Suggested changes:

“Please stop trying to injure what little pride I have left.” (best of the three)

“Please stop trying to hurt what little pride I have left.”

“Pleas stop trying to damage what little pride I have left.”

2) Swallowing One’s Pride

http://imgur.com/PXqCYlB

“There are times when a man has to swallow his tears and make a valiant retreat.” (Takeru)

“Swallow your tears” sounds extremely unnatural in English. Although someone can hold back their tears, one doesn’t “swallow them,” figuratively speaking. This would only make sense if someone was debating whether they should literally drink their own tears.

I’d go with the much more colloquial “swallow your pride,” as it fits this situation perfectly—coming on the heels of Takeru’s humiliating defeat.

Suggested Change:

“There are times when a man has to swallow his pride and make a valiant retreat.”


Ayamine’s Morale Boost

http://imgur.com/6lyyAfT

Just kidding. I’m not sure why, but it feels like morale’s gone up. Everything’s a bit more fun now.” (Takeru)

I may be splitting hairs here, but I think ‘only kidding’ would make more sense in response to someone else’s comment. It works as is, however.

The third sentence is slightly vague, I’d suggest tweaking it a bit to improve sentence clarity and readability.

Suggested Changes:

Only kidding. I’m not quite sure why, but it feels like morale’s gone up. Everyone seems to be having more fun now.”


Any More vs. Anymore

http://imgur.com/PXqCYlB

“Better leave before my ego takes anymore blows.” (Takeru’s Internal Monologue)

This one hinges on a nitpicky, yet significant stylistic distinction between ‘any more’ and ‘anymore.’ To make a long story short: the meaning and form of the word (or words) varies quite a bit based on its context.

‘Anymore’ is usually used in reference to particular behaviors that are no longer performed (or aren’t performed as frequently, if used hyperbolically). These behaviors may or may not have been frequent in the past, but they must have a clear historical precedent:

e.g. Since the oil spill, we don’t go to the beach anymore.

e.g. Why don’t we ever go out to eat anymore?

‘Any more’ on the other hand is connected to a quantity of something:

e.g. Is there any more chocolate cake left? (quantity of cake)

e.g. Settle down class, I won’t have any more of this unruly behavior! (quantity of bad behavior)

e.g. I’m so full, I couldn’t possibly eat any more of these chicken wings. (quantity of chicken wings)

This line from the VN falls firmly in the latter category because it refers to the quantity of blows suffered.

Correction:

I’d better leave before I take any more blows to my ego.”


Marimo Comments on Chizuru’s Absence (Classroom)

http://imgur.com/ABwGLUV

“She’s never been truant or tardy before, let alone had an unexcused absence.”

I fail to see the distinction between being truant and being absent from school without permission (the latter is essentially the definition of truancy).

I suggest abbreviating it as follows to avoid unnecessary repetition:

She’s never been tardy before, let alone had an unexcused absence.”


Sagiri’s Story

http://imgur.com/tHlFMxA

“I told them the same thing she did. I said I was the one who made the mistake… but it was too late.” (Sagiri)

This is a minor issue, but the word ‘that’ seems to be missing from this line.

Suggested Correction:

“I told them the same thing she did. I said that I was the one who made the mistake… but it was too late.”


Talking About Ayamine’s Old Flames

http://imgur.com/HuxqGye

“But you’re forcing yourself… and pretending to be okay…You don’t need to do that.” (Takeru)

The beginning of the first sentence—“But you’re forcing yourself…”—is incomplete (i.e. it doesn’t specify what Ayamine is forcing herself to do). While the reader can infer what this means from the sentence’s context, it doesn’t present a complete thought. Adding a few words clears this up completely.

On an unrelated note, there should also be a space after the second ellipsis.

Suggested Change:

“But you’re forcing yourself to put on a brave face… pretending to be okay… You don’t need to do that.”


Meiya’s Advice to Takeru

English: http://imgur.com/mIylF5V

Japanese: http://imgur.com/ekdF3Fp

Line attributed to Meiya and Takeru: “……”

I discovered a minor formatting error in the game’s script (fifth line in the screenshots). In the English version of this scene, the line in question is ascribed to Meiya, whereas in the Japanese script it is attributed to Takeru. I’m not entirely certain which version is correct, however, since it works both ways (I leave it to your discretion).


Withholding One’s Feelings (Hospital)

http://imgur.com/Qdr2gw2

“SAGIRI: …Yes. When you get used to witholding your feelings, the pain is nothing.”

“TAKERU’S INTERNAL MONOLOGUE: So… it’s harder to say it than to not?”

First, ‘Withholding’ should be spelled with two ‘h’s.

Second, the end of the Sagiri’s line—“the pain is nothing”—doesn’t sound natural in English. One might say, “This pain is nothing compared to…” but they wouldn’t end a sentence with “the pain is nothing.”

Correction + Suggested Changes:

“Yes. When you get used to withholding your feelings, the pain becomes negligible.”

“Yes. When you get used to withholding your feelings, the pain becomes trivial.”

Third, the conclusion of the second sentence is slightly jumbled.

Suggested Change:

“So… it’s harder to say how you feel than not to say it?”


Takeru Gets Disturbingly Possessive (Hill)

http://imgur.com/oYEEGyu

“I want Ayamine enough to cheat or lie to someone for her.” (Takeru’s Internal Monologue)

A brief aside on the use of the word ‘cheat’:

I’m not sure how cheating applies to this in any sense of the word (i.e. dishonest play, infidelity, etc.). Takeru pretended to be her significant other a few times (at her insistence), but would that be considered cheating? If anything, I’d argue that falls more into the “lying” category. The only other instance I could think of would be Takeru rushing to the hospital to win Ayamine back before Sagiri professes his love to her (rom-com style). All that being said, “cheating” still seems like a strong word to use here, especially considering the fact that Ayamine and Sagiri haven’t seen each other in years.

That aside, this sentence feels as though it’s missing a few words in order to combine its various parts into a more cohesive whole (‘that’ being of particular importance).

Suggested Change:

“I want Ayamine enough that I’m willing to cheat or even lie to someone for her.”


Takeru’s Final Chat with Meiya (Playground)

http://imgur.com/QhqSC9r

“I had already known what you wanted to say…” (Meiya)

While the sentence currently makes sense, it’s unnecessarily complex from a grammatical standpoint, adopting a passive voice.

Passive Voice: “I had already known…”

Active Voice: “I already knew…”

Correction:

“I already knew what you were going to say…”


Conversation with Chizuru (Hill)

1) What do you Know vs. What All do you Know?

http://imgur.com/2km99py

“It’s about Ayamine. What all do you know about her?” (Takeru)

The word ‘all’ is unnecessary in this sentence. According to Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary, ‘what all’ means “whatnot.”

Correction:

“It’s about Ayamine. What do you know about her?”

“It’s about Ayamine. Do you know anything about her?”

2) Minor Phrasing Issues

http://imgur.com/JsywbPH

"She might’ve felt… that the people she was closest to all betrayed her."

Although this is technically correct, I’d argue that moving the word ‘all’ further back in the sentence drastically improves readability.

Suggested Changes:

"She must have felt… that all the people she was closest to had betrayed her."


Hospital Room Scene

http://imgur.com/P73ZWFS

“AYAMINE: Shirogane… Didn’t know you were into those kinds of kinks…”

“TAKERU: That’s not what I mean!”

“TAKERU’s INTERNAL MONOLOGUE: And what the hell do you mean by ‘those kind’!?”

There’s a minor typo here, namely, the missing ‘s’ at the end of ‘those kinds.’

Correction:

“And what the hell do you mean by ‘those kinds’!?”

 

Edited by MarcoSnow

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 ah I see well just wondered I will favorite both and check in some.

Finally managed to get a screenshot with steam community help

1471372652_Muv-Luv with taskbar under Win10 release1607.png

Edited by Rashala
Finally got screenshot to show the bug

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I found what seems to be a straight-up mistranslation in Unlimited. Apologies if others have already commented on this.

During an early scene in the PX: http://i.imgur.com/6O1gR5m.jpg
Japanese script: http://i.imgur.com/UKfKYsD.jpg

"Shirogane looks a lot like Chop-kun, doesn't he?"
「白銀『チョップ君』に似てると思わない?」

I found that line strange because in the lines immediately following they make it very clear they're not talking about his physical appearance. The comparisons they make are all characteristics/habits. In fact, it seems that Takeru shares no physical resemblance with Chop-kun (because they can't decide whether he's a bear, bird, or whatever).

My understanding is that while 似てる can refer to similarities in physical appearance ("resembles," "looks like"), it can also be used to refer to more abstract characteristics. Which seems to be the case here. "Looks like" is an explicitly visual comparison, so it doesn't fit the context.

"Don't you guys think Shirogane reminds you of Chop-kun?"

Seems like a more appropriate translation. (Chizuru's later line, "look at him" would also have to be changed).

And, of course, I don't mean to knock on the overall quality of the translation. I've been very happy with it so far, and it's very impressive for such a huge script. This line in particular just bugged me.

(...Maybe I am completely wrong and Takeru is supposed to actually look like the puppet? I recall being mentioned again in Alternative.)

Edited by robotization

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Spoiler

bugml.png

Is it a bug on my side ? (character font missing on my comp ?)
Or is it a typo ?
It's "Hakuryō" (or "Hakuryou", it's a long "o").

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3 hours ago, ProfesseurM said:
  Reveal hidden contents

bugml.png

Is it a bug on my side ? (character font missing on my comp ?)
Or is it a typo ?
It's "Hakuryō" (or "Hakuryou", it's a long "o").

 

<shrug> In Japanese 'o' is always pronounced "oh" as in donut, don't, open, original.  Same in Korean.

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1 hour ago, rlranft said:

<shrug> In Japanese 'o' is always pronounced "oh" as in donut, don't, open, original.  Same in Korean.

I'm not sure I understand your post.
You mean you want to write it "Hakuryoh" ?
It's "白陵" ingame, "ハクリョウ".

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43 minutes ago, ProfesseurM said:

I'm not sure I understand your post.
You mean you want to write it "Hakuryoh" ?
It's "白陵" ingame, "ハクリョウ".

2
 
 

No, I mean I think it's fine as is (and why would anyone add an h anyway?).  As far as Romanization I don't see a point fiddling back and forth between 'o' and 'ou' because it seems pretty split as to how the voice actors say it (distinct 'o' and 'u' or just 'o' while letting the trailing 'u' blur off).  In this case, it appears that 陵 actually would be "fully" pronounced with the trailing 'u', but from listening to the actors I don't hear it.  As long as they're consistent I feel it's no big thing.

As another example - the VN Deus Machina Demonbane's protagonist's name is Kurou, and it was written Kuro in the anime.  Listening to the actors in both it was easy to see why they'd drop the 'u'.

And don't get me started on "official" Romanizations - I speak pretty good Korean and there are probably six different "official" ways to Romanize it, which is pointless and confusing.

Edited by rlranft

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@rlranft: To keep the long "o" sound instead of the short one, it needs to be spelled ô or ō depending on your keyboard.

Changing a "ou" sound to a simple "o" is incorrect.

Take for exemple kurou (hardships).

You can write it as kurô and keep the meaning or incorrectly write it as kuro (black) and lose the meaning.

So, here, the "Hakuryo" as reported by @ProfesseurMis indeed a mistake in the transliteration.

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My point is that in "common" Romanization it's irrelevant - 'o' is always a long 'o' as there is no short 'o' in the language ("ah" is written as 'a').  There is no possibility of mistake in pronunciation.  Additionally, on my keyboard I'd have to use alt-codes to produce the spelling you would prefer - they're not standard (as far as I can tell) on a U.S. English keyboard....

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1 minute ago, rlranft said:

'o' is always a long 'o' as there is no short 'o' in the language

Err, this is absolutely wrong. See my exemple above. Both exist and need to be differenciated.

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Okay, let's get on the same page here.

What does this sound like?
 kurô - is that 'oh' like note (long o)?  Is it 'ow' like how (neither long nor short o)?  I would expect this to be pronounced (fully) as 'oh-oo' ('oh' as in note, followed by oo as in shoot, which is why they Romanized it Kurou in the VN in the first place).

And what about this?
kuro - is that 'ah' like hot? Because that's a "short" o.  I would expect this to also be pronounced 'oh'.

 

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I'm not sure about the English equivalent as I'm not a native English speaker.

The ô sound (the long o) is like the sound is made longer with the same tone.

Not two "o" in succession with a slight pause (so, not "oh oh"), not a tonal "o" (I mean, no variation in pitch), just a "o" that is said for a longer time, if that makes sense to you. So I guess it's more like the English "note" word.

As for why it's sometimes written as "ô" or "ou", it just depends on the transcription method used to write from Japanese into western alphabet. Some even write is as "oo". The only way to be sure is to see it in the original Japanese :(

10 minutes ago, rlranft said:

kuro - is that 'ah' like hot? Because that's a "short" o.  I would expect this to also be pronounced 'oh'.

It's still a "o". Plain old "o" with a "standard" duration. There's only a difference in the duration, not in the sound.

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There is no English equivalent - that's why the common Romanization ends up being what it is.  I'll look up examples of 'ou' at home - my work computer doesn't have the Japanese language pack installed - but from what I've seen, usually 'ou' is transcribed that way because it's a long o followed by a long u as written in the Kana (or according to the pronunciation of the Kanji).

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Yes, the origin of the "ou" version comes from the way the Japanse write it themselves. The sign used to indicate that the "o" is long is what is commonly transcribed as a "u".

When you can read Japanese, these are:

おう(ou)

よう(you)

for example. Take out the う ("u") and the sounds become "o" and "yo".

Note that in these cases, the う ("u") is not pronunced as a "u". Its use is only to indicate that the "o" sound preceding it becomes longer. They should have used a unique symbol here :D

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Dropping vowels in romanized Japanese is a common practice (for example: Toukyou -> Tokyo) and honestly it doesn't matter which one is used. However it is undeniable that "o" is the easiest to read especially for people who aren't familiar with romanization, even if it is technically incorreect.

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Ok, I'm way slow and just getting around to Unlimited, but what's this about aiming lower because bullets curve upward? I even switched text and Tama does say 上 but that's, ah, a bit off if I must say. I know the gravity is a little weird there, but not that weird :D

upward.png

 

And about Hakuryo - it is a consistent romanization with the uniform patch, oddly enough

Edited by Aetherdeus

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On 8/19/2016 at 3:36 PM, cabfe said:

Yes, the origin of the "ou" version comes from the way the Japanse write it themselves. The sign used to indicate that the "o" is long is what is commonly transcribed as a "u".

When you can read Japanese, these are:

おう(ou)

よう(you)

for example. Take out the う ("u") and the sounds become "o" and "yo".

Note that in these cases, the う ("u") is not pronunced as a "u". Its use is only to indicate that the "o" sound preceding it becomes longer. They should have used a unique symbol here :D

 
 
 

Precisely - except that a U.S. English keyboard has no such unique character and the English language has no way to indicate that an 'o' should be stretched out longer - it's usually handled as WS Eule points out here:

On 8/19/2016 at 3:54 PM, WS Eule said:

Dropping vowels in romanized Japanese is a common practice (for example: Toukyou -> Tokyo) and honestly it doesn't matter which one is used. However it is undeniable that "o" is the easiest to read especially for people who aren't familiar with romanization, even if it is technically incorreect.

 
 
4

If it's written with some special character in your particular language then when it's translated to that language your particular rules should naturally apply.

Edited by rlranft

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I'm with WS Eule on this.  While there are two different accepted romanizations dealing with the extended "o" sound, it's common in proper nouns for it to be dropped altogether.  Tokyo, Osaka and Kyoto are all clear examples of this.

Edited by Scars Unseen

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@rlranft: The keyboard used in the country where the translation is made has no influence. If a specific letter has to be used, it has to be used.

Take for example the way Chinese is transcribed using pinyin. Using the excuse of a U.S. English keyboard to write it incorrectly will only mean that your text has, well, no meaning.

The point made by WS Eule is that some terms have been incorrectly transcribed "from the start" and have been accepted because of this past usage. That doesn't make them correct.

Another example, Tôkyô, commonly (albeit incorrectly) written Tokyo in English, is also written Tokio in German. When you know Japanese, using a "i" instead of a "y" further changes the meaning of the word if it were a proper romanization. It's accepted in German, but even more incorrect.

 

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8 minutes ago, cabfe said:

Another example, Tôkyô, commonly (albeit incorrectly) written Tokyo in English, is also written Tokio in German. When you know Japanese, using a "i" instead of a "y" further changes the meaning of the word if it were a proper romanization. It's accepted in German, but even more incorrect.

1

Okay, so... how would a translator type that text then?  How would an English reader know what ô even means?  It's literally meaningless in English.  To transcribe it this way defeats the purpose of transcription - simply replacing one unknown symbol for another unknown symbol.  Might as well not translate it at that point.

We're well beyond nit-picking at this point.

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7 minutes ago, rlranft said:

To transcribe it this way defeats the purpose of transcription - simply replacing one unknown symbol for another unknown symbol.  Might as well not translate it at that point.

Whether the audience can actually read or not is not the concern of the transcriber.

It happens all the time when you read a word written in another language that you don't know. Most of the time, you mispronounce it. No big deal. But people who do know will enjoy a proper transcript.

Say, how many people actually can say "Muv-Luv" the right way? And yet, it doesn't matter to most people.

Edited by cabfe

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If it doesn't make any difference because "people always mispronounce it anyway" then why waste the extra effort going back and changing it again?  It just costs more money and wastes time.  From a practical standpoint it's senseless - not to mention you're also talking about having the translators change the way they have to type things from the way they're accustomed to, which will also slow things down.

Good idea - increase cost and slip deadlines for no actual benefit.  I like it.

Edited by rlranft

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3 minutes ago, rlranft said:

If it doesn't make any difference because "people always mispronounce it anyway" then why waste the extra effort going back and changing it again?

For the sake of being exact? That's the point of a patch, fixing mistakes.

 

3 minutes ago, rlranft said:

It just costs more money and wastes time.

There are already several mistakes that have been reported, so they won't patch just for this one. Time spent is minimal (go to section, type one key, save) and money is the same for the whole patch.

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