Connor Krammer

Muv-Luv Feedback

488 posts in this topic

Everyone seems to be under the impression i prefer Amaterasu's script for 'Muv-Luv' and i'm just gonna throw this out here Extra was god awful with its only saving grace being the ridiculous scenarios it presented and the fact the characters carried themselves enough regardless of how broken the translation is i recall myself being in stitches. But just to set the record i was never comparing Amaterasu's work on Muv-Luv and Evan's, but rather loosely on Unlimited because i don't recall it honestly being as bad as Extra and heavily on Alternative and mostly by ear which i think we can all agree Amaterasu buckled down on Alternative. I will be straight up honest however i don't recall liking Takeru off the bat aside from his Shiroganese this is mainly what he had going for him in Extra the cringe from the localization however just has me recoiling every time and my expectations were more set on what i believe i took from Amaterasu's work in Alternative and what i anticipated from the Japanese copies. The humor itself/Shiroganese however is all i have been having issues with. But i find myself increasingly interested in fully understanding Evan's localization the more i talk to him and the community.

@Tits_Mcgruff I agree with all of your observations, especially Meiya i will admit had me rather happy to see her true self reflected in Evan's translation.

It's also worth noting Meiya and Takeru are my top favorites with Yuuko in third and the only reason i'm so hard on Ayamine because i have always felt she has been lacking something that i feel both Amaterasu and Evan don't fully convey. I guess i consider Ayamine's humor to be more like a fine wine that's aged for decades and deadpan humor to me is more complicated. Both Munakata and her i feel have a certain touch to their trolling. But this is honestly my fault for reading too far into what was promised to us.

@dongaro"(which is damn hard because some phrases and words have no direct opposite that sound right in spoken English)."

Interesting i'm glad you said this, would you mind providing some examples so people like myself may better appreciate this?

Edited by StormVanguard

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@stormvanguard I Apologize for earlier tone. I was overly terse and may have come off as rude, for which I apologize (I was writing on the phone and noticed this on rereading it)

The obvious ones that leap to mind are kohai and sempai. The meaning is fairly obvious, but Ive never read (or seen in any movie) some called upperclassman/senior in casual English conversation. In fact, using the direct translation makes it really odd. In conversational English there is a degree of respect in the tone of the conversation, but the sempai isn't going to addressed regularly as senior.

Another is 'you'. Japanese has a great many ways to say 'you' many of which are rude and get translated as b*****d or other swears despite not meaning this (Japanese in general doesn't have swear words per say, so much as ways of speaking rudely). Some versions of 'you' are very intimate and can be easily translated as 'dear' or 'wife/husband' but again that's not whats actually being said.

'I' is another word with like five versions at least (watashi/watakuchi/boku/atashi/ore ect). Each one means I, but has completely different tone and nuance. As a male if I said atashi it would be really odd or could be taken to be mocking, or imply I'm trying to be cutesy. Boku would give the tone of being relaxed (if a female said it, it would imply tomboyish nature). Ore is a complicated one that can be rude or just really really relaxed.

Each version of 'I' has a tone to it that can't easily be put into English. Added to the fun fact Japanese verbs get an extra conjugation based on politeness. Which means I can write one sentence in English and it corresponds word for word with 5 different ones in Japanese (in which I could be cras, informal, polite, or super polite)

Please bear in mind I'm an amateur with only a bit of understanding. But as I said, sometimes to preserve the tone and nuance of the language the word for word translation cant work cause it doesn't sound right, or there is no real way to translate it directly. And even choosing a word can't satisfy everyone (I can think of a few VN elsewhere where I've questioned the word choice despite understanding why it was done.) Also really curious how Shakespeare is translated in Japanese...

 

Note :reworded this since I didn't like the original that was written on the phone

 

 

Edited by dongaro

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While I don't intend to stir arguments with this, but I'm guess most of English fanbase had their first contact with Muv-Luv through Amaterasu's translation. That probable emotional bias gives an impression of the translation and script being better than what it was, when in reality Amaterasu's script has character's losing their characterisation and mistranslated bits happening to the point of obsfuscating personalities, events and concepts. For example, Kei has actual character in the new script. You may not like how her lines were made idiomatic in English, but that's the level of translation needed to convey her properly to those who are not wed into Japanese pop-/culture. In Amaterasu's script, she was nearly a blank slate with night incoherent lines tacked together with no flow to them to make some sense, a thing that is very much against the Japanese original. Then you have lines referencing Kimi ga Nozomu Eien that were completely lost in Amaterasu's script, among other issues.

Amaterasu's Alternative script fairs no better. I seriously encourage checking the following bit just to remind yourself what the actual quality in it was;

Spoiler

【Meiya】「Speaking of which, have you seen Yoroi today?」
【Takeru】「No, why?」
【Meiya】「Hm......well......we are bound to see her sooner or later......ah.」
【Takeru】「Hm?」
【Chizuru】「Oh, there she is......what's she looking for?」
【Mikoto】「There you are!!!」
【Meiya】「Speak of the devil......she has already targeted you.」
【Takeru】「Eh?」
【Mikoto】「Takeru!!」
What? What's she holding?
【Chizuru】「That's an unnatural run......why's she holding her hands up?」
【Meiya】「You will soon learn.」
【Mikoto】「Takeruuuuu!! Ah!!!」
【Takeru】「............」
【Meiya】「............」
【Chizuru】「............」
That was a truly spectacular fall......how hard did she hit her face just now?
【Mikoto】「Owieeeee............aaah!!」
【Takeru】「What's wrong?」
【Mikoto】「Ah......aaah......aaah!!」
【Takeru】「Mikoto?」
【Mikoto】「Aaaaah!!!」
【Takeru】「Tell me already!」
【Mikoto】「My dancing butterfly fell apart!!I'll never be able to make that again!!」
【Takeru】「Huuuh?」
【Mikoto】「I'm talking about cat's cradle. Ca-t's cr-a-dle!! Nnaaaaah I can't believe this!!」
【Chizuru】「............」
【Takeru】「............」
【Meiya】「Such a shame, it was such a gorgeous shape......」
......that takes me back.
I'm pretty sure I chose to use this day as a chance to sleep in last time......then I met Yuuko-sensei and Kasumi down here.
Class Rep and the others were long gone by then......so this is what they'd been doing.
Were it not for the emergency summons, would I have gotten to see a dancing butterfly?
【Mikoto】「Uuu............」
Hey now, are you crying?
【Mikoto】「Hauuuuuu......」
【Chizuru】「Don't get so depressed over a piece of string.」
【Mikoto】「But......」
【Meiya】「That aside, will you eat with us?」
【Mikoto】「......yes.」
【Mikoto】「And! How should I say this......it kinda burst into my head!」
【Meiya】「Yes, yes......」
【Mikoto】「I thought this had to be a gift from the gods!」
【Chizuru】「......a dancing butterfly?」
【Mikoto】「Yes!」
If gods are wasting their time giving people that......ugh.
【Mikoto】「So I closed my eyes and let him guide my fingers......and then it turned into that!」
【Takeru】「Wouldn't you be able to do it again if you'd kept your eyes open the first time?」
【Mikoto】「It's not like that!」
......no, it is like it.
【Meiya】「Have you shown it to Tamase and Ayamine?」
【Mikoto】「Yeah, they both said it was amazing〜」
......I don't think they both meant it in a good way though.
【Chizuru】「Anyway......I'll be going now......」
【Takeru】「Hm......? Okay......」
......8:30.
If I slept in like last time, everyone would probably have left the PX by now.
I'm changing little things like this every single day.
And yet......will the alarm still go off?
【Meiya】「I should as well......」
【Takeru】「What're you gonna do today, Meiya?」
【Meiya】「............」
【Takeru】「Wh-what?」
【Meiya】「Train, so that I will not lose to you again.」
......training on a day off?Impressive.
【Chizuru】「Shirogane, you've been looking at the clock a lot today......something bothering you?」
【Takeru】「Eh? Ah, that......no, not really.I just felt like I should be making better use of my day off......or something.」
【Meiya】「Letting yourself go, even on a day off, will weaken your body after all.」
【Takeru】「But giving myself some rest will improve my performance later!」
【Mikoto】「Hey, hey, Takeru, wanna play cat's cradle with me?」
【Takeru】「Eh? Aaah............well, sure I guess.」
Whatever we agree to now won't matter in a few minutes.
For now......if the alarm doesn't go off......
【Chizuru】「Bye now.」
【Meiya】「Yoroi......I hope to see your next divine revelation.」
【Mikoto】「Okay!」
......is nothing......going to happen?

It's a hammy script. Its flow is jagged and muddled with each line being almost a separate entry without connection to the previous. All the lines given to the characters sound inorganic and unnatural to the point it sounds almost like nothing an English speaker would speak like. That's the crux; these are essentially English subtitles that are required to convey meaning and purpose through English. Simply transliterating something word for word makes an awful as hell translation, especially from a language that uses logographic writing system. Translation should be true to the source, but it should not be its slave, and it is highly important to allow the translated language to shine in its own right regardless of the source language.

Translation in itself is a form of localisation, and when you have a logographic system, the simple job of turning  馬鹿 into baka is localisation. The raw transliteration of that logography would not be fool or stupid though. It'd be horse deer. Horse deer in English doesn't convey anything about stupidity, so more appropriate local version of stupid is used. Is this a nonsequitor of an example? Yes. I have a hobby of reading about etymologies now and then.

On 19.7.2016 at 0:56 PM, StormVanguard said:

More specifically i absolutely love what you've done with Meiya and she more feels up to par with Amaterasu's script in Alternative.

Picking this up from few pages back, and while you mean good with this, it's an outright insult from my end. If you continue straight into Alternative after finishing this new translation, I guarantee you'll feel and see quality bottoming out in comparison. To use Meiya as an example, her lines have no change in level of quality when it comes to the script. Amaterasu's Muv-Luv and Alternative share the same level of competence, and while their Alternative script may be slightly more polished compared to their Muv-Luv script, it's nowhere near the quality it should be. Meiya's character in the official translation is more accurate representation.

Let's be fair, people have rose coloured glasses when it comes to Amaterasu's translation. This is a normal psychological thing to happen. People are invested in the characters on an emotional level and they have subjective view on everything surrounding it. When a new translation comes in and claims that it is more accurate and true to the source material, the first thing people see is their history being invalidated of sorts.

For example, first Finnish translation of Peter Pan was in 1922, which had all the names localised in a very, very childish way. It lessened the violence and had few inaccuracies thrown in there. This translation was the base of future translations, until in 2002 we got our first accurate translation of the work, which didn't go so well with people who had experienced the old one/s, including the Disney movie. Why? Because the one they knew before was the one they were invested in personally on an emotional level. Names gained better and less soft connotations and such. Nevertheless, the translation is stellar and represents the original works far better. The same happened with Brother Grimm's, with some of the new translations re-inserting the bloody messes and translating the stories in their original horrific content. Emotional attachment blurs memories harshly. That emotional attachment is towards the story itself, not towards the translation.

I too like certain elements in Ama's script, but the official translation is objectively better. One can say that they like Amaterasu's script better, as opinions are personal and subjective.Taking a step back and observing these while distancing from your own views is beneficial in almost every case.

If this comes through as confrontational to you, blame it on the fact that I have a splitting headache right now.

 

12 hours ago, dongaro said:

Also really curious how Shakespeare is translated in Japanese...

I recommend giving this a read. I also recommend reading a book called Shakespeare and the Japanese stage, as it goes deep into translation and portrayal of the Bard's work. ISBN is 978-0521470438. Watching Kumonosu-jou/ Throne of Blood should give an idea how Japanese have classically adapted Shakespeare for themselves. They're just as screwed if not even worse with the Bard than we are with their Classic literature. 

Edited by Aalt
Grammar and other details

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Sorry if I missed this skimming through 10 pages, but during Tsukuyomi's raving about the Mitsurugi Financial Group, there are spaces missing in these sentences:

 

2016-07-21_16-09-06.png

2016-07-21_16-09-46.png

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@jmaisonet That's an interesting bug, because the script (we just checked) actually has spaces there. Could be a bug related to how lines are merged—Tsukiyomi's rant is actually made up of multiple independent lines that are combined by the game's engine—so we're looking into it. Thanks for letting us know!

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1 hour ago, Connor Krammer said:

 

@jmaisonet That's an interesting bug, because the script (we just checked) actually has spaces there. Could be a bug related to how lines are merged—Tsukiyomi's rant is actually made up of multiple independent lines that are combined by the game's engine—so we're looking into it. Thanks for letting us know!

tbh that sequence is pretty buggy atm anyways so it wouldn't surprise me. I reported it in the steam bug thread but she starts talking REALLY fast if you try and scroll down in that bit hah.

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1 hour ago, Randomacts said:

tbh that sequence is pretty buggy atm anyways so it wouldn't surprise me. I reported it in the steam bug thread but she starts talking REALLY fast if you try and scroll down in that bit hah.

Ah, the fast speech is intentional—Tsukiyomi is talking really fast during her rant, so it's actually not meant to progress at a comfortable reading speed. It's meant to emphasize how overwhelming the wall of text is.

If there's something else going on there, though, I can take a look at it.

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1 hour ago, Connor Krammer said:

Ah, the fast speech is intentional—Tsukiyomi is talking really fast during her rant, so it's actually not meant to progress at a comfortable reading speed. It's meant to emphasize how overwhelming the wall of text is.

If there's something else going on there, though, I can take a look at it.

Ah I figured it could be intentional. I just couldn't remember what it was like in the Japanese version. .. and I didn't feel like booting into Japanese locale to check. =p

There was other unrelated stuff I reported in the steam bug thread but I assume you guys check that every so often even if you don't comment on it. 

Edited by Randomacts

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Screenshot 2016-07-22 01.28.08.pngScreenshot 2016-07-22 01.28.17.png

I don't know if it's a bug or not but is this what Meiya is supposed to say? Feel free to delete this reply if this is as intended.

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@IAmAHero Meiya is supposed to say that. Err means to not make a mistake. She's just using noble speech pattern.

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4 hours ago, Connor Krammer said:

Ah, the fast speech is intentional—Tsukiyomi is talking really fast during her rant, so it's actually not meant to progress at a comfortable reading speed. It's meant to emphasize how overwhelming the wall of text is.

If there's something else going on there, though, I can take a look at it.

The text display speed is way too slow in that segment and doesn't match what is said at all. It will also occasionally make jumps and display huge chunks of text at once.

That's why this part seems buggy (as it is in fact bugged).

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54 minutes ago, IAmAHero said:

I don't know if it's a bug or not but is this what Meiya is supposed to say? Feel free to delete this reply if this is as intended.

Errare humanum est.

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1 hour ago, Hirei said:

@IAmAHero Meiya is supposed to say that. Err means to not make a mistake. She's just using noble speech pattern.

I see. Thank you for clearing that up!

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1 hour ago, WS Eule said:

The text display speed is way too slow in that segment and doesn't match what is said at all. It will also occasionally make jumps and display huge chunks of text at once.

That's why this part seems buggy (as it is in fact bugged).

If it's jumping suddenly then that part is a bug. I'll take a look at it—thanks for the explanation.

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@Aaltquite frankly i haven't been getting much sleep clocking in at three hours currently so call it even? :)

All things considered though i took no offense and have great respect for you and Evan and i hope you recovered from your headache quickly.

I actually prefer you corrected me and brought that to my attention because heck even i would view that as an insult. What i actually would have liked to have said is i like how both versions of Meiya are written while conveying better that i have the future in mind that his Meiya will probably surpass anything amaterasu provided for me. I'm a bit awkward at times so i thank you for your patience, Evan deserves the time.

I don't plan on adding anything further unless someone feels the need for it but as far as i'm considered my final feelings were posted yesterday.

 

I stress though I respect the time and effort you take to correct people and give an educated opinion. If it wasn't for guy's like you, Evan, Ikaruga, Gabgrave, Invalidname etc this fanbase would be doomed.

And i would have to agree Amaterasu's translation is the equivalent to subtitles while i disagree with a good number of Evan's idiomatic choices his script is objectively better in every way but i feel Ama's script is the closest we'll get to the original script for Ayamine and Takeru, even if Evan's localization is a better representation of the characters themselves and when it's all said and done that's all that matters.

The Kimi ga nozoumu eien references were also much appreciated.

Edited by StormVanguard

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On 7/21/2016 at 10:31 PM, StormVanguard said:

...the only reason i'm so hard on Ayamine because i have always felt she has been lacking something that i feel both Amaterasu and Evan don't fully convey. I guess i consider Ayamine's humor to be more like a fine wine that's aged for decades and deadpan humor to me is more complicated. Both Munakata and her i feel have a certain touch to their trolling. But this is honestly my fault for reading too far into what was promised to us.

Heh - I think Ayamine is just fine - she reminds me of my daughters, if a bit quieter.  She's got all the snark.  I'm going to have to learn Japanese just to see what that actually sounds like - I know that Koreans didn't really do sarcasm when I lived there 20 years ago and I never really imagined the Japanese as a sarcastic people, so Ayamine is a fantastic character to me.

Edited by rlranft
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Ayamine was one of my favorite too. Found her very funny. I liked her personality of being very weird and quiet, but also a prankster.

Edited by Mkilbride

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12 minutes ago, rlranft said:

I'm going to have to learn Japanese just to see what that actually sounds like

Another good reason for me to do so.

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I like in the PX - "I'll call you Yakisoba!" "I will end you."  "Okay, Ayamine it is...."

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I might be dumb, but I can't find the text speed option, the way the text is displayed looks really weird with the default options (whole sentences displayed instead of seeing the text being wrote letter by letter like someone typing it)

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4 minutes ago, ProfesseurM said:

I might be dumb, but I can't find the text speed option, the way the text is displayed looks really weird with the default options (whole sentences displayed instead of seeing the text being wrote letter by letter like someone typing it)

Oddly enough all i'm seeing is auto read speed.

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1 hour ago, StormVanguard said:

Oddly enough all i'm seeing is auto read speed.

Sorry guys - I'm at work or I'd post a screenshot - it's the first thing I adjust in any VN these days.  Should be on page 2 somewhere though - my text plunks in instantly (except for Tsukuyomi's speech about the Mitsurugi Zaibatsu) so I know I found it....

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1 hour ago, ProfesseurM said:

I might be dumb, but I can't find the text speed option, the way the text is displayed looks really weird with the default options (whole sentences displayed instead of seeing the text being wrote letter by letter like someone typing it)

They removed the option from this release. I asked about it a few pages back, they said the option is highly unlikely to return. Makes me sad.

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23 hours ago, jmaisonet said:

Sorry if I missed this skimming through 10 pages, but during Tsukuyomi's raving about the Mitsurugi Financial Group, there are spaces missing in these sentences:

 

2016-07-21_16-09-06.png

2016-07-21_16-09-46.png

Nerd.  That said, major props to you for due diligence there - a huge text wall and you still spotted the missing spaces.  From one grammar-nazi to another, I salute you.

44 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

They removed the option from this release. I asked about it a few pages back, they said the option is highly unlikely to return. Makes me sad.

So, it just drops the text in one shot instead of letter by letter by default?  Sweet, I always hated waiting for text to appear.  Waiting for text to appear makes me sad.

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