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limith

Why are there no advances in unmanned robotics in Muv-Luv?

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Given the demographic pressures humanity faces (eg. Schwarzesmarken anime mentions early on about the sheer human losses the Warsaw Pact has in their static defense line doctrine or the wiki stating 30% of the population is wiped out by 1974 and rises to 50% by 1995) it's astonishing why humanity, all the way to MLA/MLU, has not advanced remote controlled TSFs, tanks, etc. Historically the Soviets began experimentation in the 1930s with the teletank (http://teletank.weebly.com/how-it-affected-history.html). The soviets ultimately scrapped the teletank though as all experiments were using obsolete light tanks. I believe it would have been possible for the Soviets to have taken their knowledge of remote controlled tanks and applied them to the more successful T-34 or T54/55. Similarly both Germany and the UK developed remote controlled tanks during this era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_tracked_mine). Yes it is true that these remote controlled variants were not successful during the time, but this is mostly due to the limitations of early prototypes (especially given how the Soviet one had to be controlled remotely with no close up vision). Given more advanced remote control technology it should be cost-effective (due to the severe manpower shortage) to invest in remote control weaponry. For example, early radio based remote controls could have be used in the defense line of Schwarzesmarken to avoid the losses the DDR couldn't sustain. Similarly although early remote control technologies would not work for TSFs (which require high levels of mobility and responsiveness that the lag time of satellite control would be insufficient and high levels of visibility which early radio cannot sustain), improvements in wireless technology should allow for the deployment of remote controlled TSFs by the time of MLA. Specifically this would involve having multiple groups of remote controlled TSF's forming a mobile communications line. Each TSF serves as a wireless rebroadcast point allowing control with reasonable response times. The group performing the laserjagd can be thus controlled via signals sent via other groups safely from behind the front lines. As the survival rate of remote control pilots should be fairly high, this should in turn increase veterancy of pilots and the number of TSF batallions available to the front (in Schwarzenmarken for example there is a scene where the soldiers wonder if there are even any TSF battalions other than 666/Stasi remaining due to high attrition)

Edited by limith

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Too early in Black marks and too much lag in MLA.
Also:
 

Quote

The data links from the control unit to the slave units can also be disrupted by heavy metal particles and enemy jamming capabilities.

 

Edit: Also, piloting a giant robot is thousand times better than remote controling one.

Edited by FaceEater

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Because a. There aren't enough resources in the Muv-Luv universe to invest in all the potential research topics of the historical world (As explained by Yuuko as to why there aren't video games, and that miniaturizing electronics has been difficult) and b. the more technologically advanced something is, the bigger target it is for the BETA, so presumably anything that has the tech to be remote-controlled from a long distance is going to have a pretty big target on its back.

And for bonus c. it's been shown time and time again, in both the real world and in Muv-Luv, that the skill, rational/emotional thinking, and reaction times of a human pilot are needed in the field to be successful and pull off the maneuvers necessary to evade and destroy the unpredictable BETA in the heat of a moment, which is something a robot, or a human thousands of miles away, cannot pull off reasonably well.

Also, we wouldn't have fortified suits if that were a thing. Why would you want that?

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5 hours ago, G3rman said:

Also, we wouldn't have fortified suits if that were a thing. Why would you want that?

Mmm....those lovely fortified suits....slrrr....sorry, what?

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Basically what @G3rman said. Adding some things:

-In the early 70 and 80, the problem wasn't that much of a lack of pilots, but rather a lack of TSFs.  It wasn't until the middle 80s that it seems the production started getting more stable and less hurried. This basically rules out any attempt at using such experimental tactics early on, specially when your frontlines are on the brink of destruction.

-Another thing is that TSFs are thought mostly for Hive infiltration. And communications inside Hives work very, very badly. Maintaining the frontlines is something that armoured reserves can do relatively well as long as laserjagds are done, and the nature of laserjads means they can barely use communications too (either you put in a lot of heavy metal clouds to avoid being fried by lasers, or you're fried by lasers; some TSFs squads seems to be able to go through the BETA line directly, but that's clearly the exception, and something I'm not sure "tele-TSFs" would be able to reproduce even with such skilled pilots piloting them). The other thing TSFs can do are culling operations, but those both require heavy metal clouds and are far away enough that probably even without them it could be considered risky (at least for communications in Alternative).

-In MLA things have progressed a little differently. The European union is basically perfecting their 3rd generation TSF and building up their forces for a reconquest of Europe; their culling tactics seem to be pretty effective, and among them both of the squads introduced by the series seem to be both pretty veteran and without incurring major losses. Not only that, the EU works mostly with a "All TSF" force to make incursions deep in BETA territory to cull them, so the possible problems would outweight the advantages in their case. Japan is basically close to death, and it seems both their finances and industrial capacity are both completely overtaxed; like half the world in the 80s, they don't have extra force to spend if they wish to maintain the frontlines. The USA meanwhile seems to have used most of their research and industrial capabilities for investigating the G-elements and making both spaceships and Bombs. With G-bombs making TSF almost obsolete in their eyes, and they barely already having losses against the BETA anyway, they simply don't care too much. The USSR has put his eggs on the "ESPer" basket, which probably won't work very well with standard communications (or maybe it could work, and that's the final step of their plan; the USSR is kinda a mystery even in Alternative).

For the rest, i think there may actually be projects with automated tanks and other vehicles, but TSF concretely have condition too clashing for any sort of remote control. It probably could be done, but with lack of miniaturization, lack of funds, and basically lack of everything its' easy to understand why it isn't done.

Edited by Marx-93

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'Unmanned' can lead to two things for me which are autonomous AI controlled vehicles and remote controlled like you said. Both which I don't think is a good idea.

Autonomous AI controlled vehicles are no good since even a good AI like google search took a long time and need so much input to train itself to be this good today, which we don't have the time on MLA universe. I believe that normal human can beat an untrained AI any day. Not to mention that the BETA

Spoiler

can learn and adapts very fast to human strategies.

With those reasons it's better to put all the efforts to make a great TSFs and OSs and use human as the pilot.

As for remote controlled vehicles,  I think the problem lies mainly on the data-link and lag like the previous replies said. Lag is no good during combat and distrupted data-link on remote controlled vehicles means goodbye. Also sadly money and material resources is also a problem in MLA world, one example is that Japan choose to make the XFJ project to develop a new TSF rather than produce more and more Takemikazuchis (despite how superior they are, they cost too much).

So rather than experimenting on new stuffs it's better to just improve the ones that has the least risks.

I mean,

Spoiler

if not for Takeru, humans might've been extinct by 2002 right?

:P

 

Edited by type2000

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I don't think there would be remote controlled TSF's in the 70s and 80s, but they surely could have invested in automated or remotely controlled defensive weapons such as turrets on the defensive walls. It can be something as simple as just firing forward at anything that moves or fixed distances. A control by wire system can be used if you are really concerned with lag for such defensive systems and targeting can be done using cameras.

 

Spoiler

For example in the anime a heavy laser class attacks the defense line artillery killing individuals. The western naval forces providing artillery support also come under attack during the amphibious assault of Poland. Lastly the Fort outside of Berlin that falls is defended by Infantry in trenches. For a nation with manpower problems this seems like a great usage of men! Actually the entire soviet defensive doctrine is illogical as everyone learned in WW2 that static defense doesn't work.

Given technology is more advanced in Muv-Luv vis-a-vis the same year in the real world (moon colonies remember) it's particularly baffling why such weapons are still not at least remotely controllable by the time of MLA. (Especially with regards to naval artillery support. A remotely controlled naval platform can save significant costs as you do not need to have expensive life support systems). Neither of these units are under heavy metal interference (which I'm not sure isn't solvable, I couldn't find enough information on that topic).

On an economic standpoint, autonomous equipment is cheaper to produce (ex drones vs cost of airplanes) because you do not have to take into consideration the pilot (life support, having the physical space for the individual, etc etc). 'Early' (late) TSF automation projects would probably be even cheaper because, like the Teletank experiments, they can retrofit outdated equipment for field tests. A key reason for the proliferation of drones is due to the staggering cost of airplane manufacturing. Automated equipment is simply cheaper, by leap and bounds. Commercial airplanes are largely automated nowadays during flight and the TSF has some automation programs built in (stabilization for example). Similarly, SpaceX's Falcon I has automated launch computers that aborted it's third launch attempt. In fact, space travel requires a considerable amount of automation, and if they had space stations and moon colonies in the 50s they should already have significant investments in automation. I don't think the cost of going full remote or auto is necessarily that expensive. Especially given the demographic pressures, every life saved by automated systems, such as auto cannons or automated tanks and other vehicles means another life able to contribute in farming, industry, research, etc.

In terms of 'tele'-TSF's, the would obviously work very horribly given the real life equivalents. However the tele technology was the first experiments with automated warfare in the 1920s and as a result cannot possibly be how prototypes would perform in the 2000s. I believe a hybrid of automated and remote controlled can work to overcome the lag issue. Surely improvements in wireless technology would have been able to make TSF's reasonably usable for tasks that don't involve Hive infiltration. It's not as if the signal is traveling across the world or halfway across the USA. Most people can deal with 'lag' fine in online games halfway across the USA which tends to be around 100-200ms. Even halfway across the world playing over the Great Firewall of China only results in 500-700ms and is entirely compensatable (it's not a pleasant experience mind you). Shooting games have aggressive lag compensation which can be replicated with auto-aiming (ex. trajectory prediction and aiming at a BETA weakpoints), movement prediction, etc. etc. to account for small delays. I'm using modern lag estimates (actually from 2010) because technology in Muv-Luv is more advanced (roughly 10-20 years) so these times should be perfectly reasonable in the 2000's of MLA. The only real concern would be signal interference from heavy metal clouds which again I'm not sure if it is overcome-able (the wiki article on signal interference, ECM, ECCM isn't very detailed on this particular case. Most of those articles talk about jamming and false flag stuff, not interfering with the signals through blockage)

On the issue of BETA adapting, the advantage of an AI is actually that it can learn and counter adapt. Although it would probably be prohibitively expensive to do so against real life BETA, so I would imagine training algorithms would be run against training sims and wargames run by humans (where one team plays as the BETA). Similarly the hybrid automated remote approach would make this problem irrelevant because a human would ultimately be controlling it.

Edited by limith

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You seem to miss a pair of points.

First, despite what Takeru thinks at the beginning, is clear that technology in Alternative is not "10-20 years more advanced". As the whole thing with Yuuko later shows, they have a tremendous problem with miniaturizing, and any kind of autonomous equipment lives of that (literally; we had experiments, but drones haven't been used until now because problems with that). They are very advanced in other technologies: materials, space-based and even psychological. But most of their electronics are relatively standard. The situation is a lot more complex than simply "very advanced".

Second, in the early 80s, the problem wasn't of manpower. Well, there actually was a problem with that, but it was the least of them. The problem was the lack of TSFs and advanced equipment. What east Germany did was actually sensible, even if murderously cruel; they had a population of 18 millions, through extreme conscription laws they could make an army of 2.000.000 and the Beta came in waves of 20.000. Of course, it was an attribution war they couldn't win, but they alone basically endured 4 years, which is more than any other small country had managed. The other option was to simply retreat until production was stable enough to build a force to reconquer the mainland, which is exactly what the EU is trying. It's pretty easy to see too: in the Oder-Niesse line, in half of the six main encampments they had a total of 4 squadrons conducting a Laserjagd  to defend a line 60km long, 15 km deep (so, 900 km2) all probably under strength (i.e. no more than 40 machines). During the Invasion of Niigata 18 years later, Japan had a total of 9 squadrons (seemingly full strength) plus 3 naval squadrons, to defend the shore from an invasion coming from and island of 855 km2, with another full division (so, another 9 squads) as reinforcements and another 2 full divisions as reserves. All with probably machines a lot better than the MiG-21s the Germans had.

In the 80s, using manpower is all they could do. Now, I agree some limited remote weapons would make sense, but I expect to see it only later on the series. East Germany is precisely the last one place where they could afford to use it (well, together with China perhaps; I also think the only way the Chinese managed to resist as much as they could was probably simply through throwing millions of soldiers at the Beta, which they actually could kinda afford more than others).

Edited by Marx-93

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So I noticed in the new translation of Muv Luv Alternative that they actually talk about unmanned robotics, automated turrets, and UAV's. They mentioned BETA prioritize them higher than humans. Not sure if this was in the original translation or was added but it's good to see it being acknowledged by the official series. Also in chapter 9 a TSF does fight autonomously on autopilot so it seems they definitively have automated TSF's. The naval ships it is mentioned had automatic cannons as well.

Edited by limith

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The Susano-O while piloted by the 00 Unit is ostensibly "unmanned," though technically the "AI" is a digitized human mind.

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First in the Muv-Luv Alternative stared introduction all of about  remote controlled TSFs first will by the BETA damage and also BETA think human are best dangerous, then AI unmanned robotics not at good, human can control robotics more better,if use unmanned robotics need so many money first need so many money and also in the Muv-Luv Alternative also have AI control but you should be look at not good, practice of human is very fast and human have should and courage can help themselves best attack BETA, AI not fun ,Ai can't with BETA communication.

MLA introduction zero zero unit that's also best similar human in another ways can say that's best AI mathematic,whatever AI or unmanned robotics can displace zero zero unit status so you say why human can't make a good science unmanned robotics because that's for BETA attack not at good and also all of BETA for good computer have best response so human can't make this because that's waste time and money.

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