cabfe

Any advice on starting with Visual Novels?

51 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Mormaethor said:

What which would you enjoy more:

1) Spending a night at a five star hotel after spending one at a three star hotel

or rather:

2) Spending a night at a three star hotel after spending one at a five star hotel

Only your enjoyment of the second night (the one you are about to spend) is relevant.

Question is will they be able to spend the night at 3 star hotel at all? Or will they give up and quit in the middle. It's better to taste the best first, and then move to the worse ones. There's a LOT top tier VNs translated, like Steins Gate Muv Luv A Ever17 Majikoi  Grisaia Umineko Little Busters Rewrite G Senjou etc. etc. So I don't think there' any point with starting your journey with something average or average+. I think when it'll come out it may be a good starter VN: http://mangagamer.org/gahkthun/ 

tl;dr

There's a lot of 5 and 4 star hotels, so why bother with 3 star ones o_O?

Starting with something like this might get your hopes too high though... Sadly only 1-5 chaps are translated. This is the best visuals I've seen in a VN probably.

 

Edited by MaxelFX

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2 hours ago, MaxelFX said:

Sadly only 1-5 chaps are translated.

Very nice... what % of the game is that?

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1 hour ago, Anix said:

Very nice... what % of the game is that?

About a third.

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41 minutes ago, MaxelFX said:

http://commiesubs.com/mahoyo/

Looks like around 30~~% 

And also english gameplay... Damn...

Damn, how did I miss this.

I'll def have to follow the progress on this one.

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15 minutes ago, Uskon said:

Damn, how did I miss this.

I'll def have to follow the progress on this one.

Commie's will never be done. I'm surprised it's not completely dropped.

The 1-5 patch was done by Beast's Lair, a Type-Moon fansite, I believe. You have to lurk there. 

I don't like playing partial patches, so I'll wait for the full patch. If it's anything like F H/A's wait... Come to think of it, I haven't played that yet. 

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1 minute ago, encrypted12345 said:

Commie's will never be done. I'm surprised it's not completely dropped.

The 1-5 patch was done by Beast's Lair, a Type-Moon fansite, I believe. You have to lurk there. 

I don't like playing partial patches, so I'll wait for the full patch. If it's anything like F H/A's wait... Come to think of it, I haven't played that yet. 

Thanks for the heads up. I'm most certainly not into partials.

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5 hours ago, encrypted12345 said:

I don't like playing partial patches, so I'll wait for the full patch. If it's anything like F H/A's wait... Come to think of it, I haven't played that yet. 

Wow, I remember when I first finifhed F:S/N I found out about that and checked it like every other day when it was just starting. I got all excited one day when it went up by 3% and then I realized how long I had been checking. I think it probably took like 5 years or something ridiculous. Completely slipped off my radar and I stopped caring.

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11 hours ago, encrypted12345 said:

Commie's will never be done. I'm surprised it's not completely dropped.

The 1-5 patch was done by Beast's Lair, a Type-Moon fansite, I believe. You have to lurk there. 

I don't like playing partial patches, so I'll wait for the full patch. If it's anything like F H/A's wait... Come to think of it, I haven't played that yet. 

To quote "also that’s partially wrong. it’s fully translated an in editing." as of August 2015. Commie is also notorious for being really bad at doing site updates. Otoh, they drop the honorifics in their translations, so I may have to depend on the V/o to actually get the level of character respect disparities right -_-

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1 hour ago, Michael D. B-Valada said:

To quote "also that’s partially wrong. it’s fully translated an in editing." as of August 2015. Commie is also notorious for being really bad at doing site updates. Otoh, they drop the honorifics in their translations, so I may have to depend on the V/o to actually get the level of character respect disparities right -_-

You can have drop the honorifics without losing character respect disparities clues, but you have to alter dialogue signficantly to be more informal or formal based on the situation.

I wouldn't trust a fansub site with the amount of work involved though, and even if I think that it's somewhat less professional, it's easier for everyone involved to keep the suffixes and simply have people learn what they mean by context. Also, it does take place in Japan and all. If it took place in America, it'll be slightly annoying I guess, but I would be able to live with it. 

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Sorry to say but there's some really bad advice going on here.

First off, anyone suggesting Saya no Uta. Sure it's short but jesus...it's a bit intense for a first timer.

Second to those suggesting the likes of Policenauts and Eve Burst error, terrible idea. They use old mechanics which will drive newbies away completely. That point and click trigger system is just awful no matter how you dress it up.

Third, suggesting fifty hour games. Thats a bit much for a first time. Admittedly my first VN was Fate/stay night but still. Better to have something that doesn't require such a huge time investment.

(Really Subjective opinion: Ever17 is utterly terrible. Only thing it has is one good twist and even that is ruined by an ungodly stupid deus ex machina to explain it. Same with 999. Can't say much for remember11 but I found that the plots of these games tend to have good first concepts, that are ruined by unnatural characterization, some random intrusive info-dumping to justify the supernatural and then become....really really dumb)

For getting someone into the genre I say a perfect title would be Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo. It's about medium length, fairly liner but still has a choice system to ease newbies in and is a great game. Though for someone who has difficultly with installing these games, Kira Kira would be a good choice too as install for mangagamers version is easy. Plus it has great music and a pretty good story.

 

Edited by AidanAK47

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34 minutes ago, AidanAK47 said:

Sorry to say but there's some really bad advice going on here.

First off, anyone suggesting Saya no Uta. Sure it's short but jesus...it's a bit intense for a first timer.

With Saya no Uta it's probably more about how twisted the player is ;)

So if you're the type who (like me) has some slightly disturbing reactions to normally tragic/shocking/joyous events... It's potentially an extremely enjoyable piece even for a novice.

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@AidanAK47

Dude sorry to go on a rant here but I specifically recommend Policenauts to people who are either already classic 80s Sci-Fi Movie Fans or Hideo Kojima Fans through Metal Gear.

If they already met that criteria I see no problem of recommending it to them even as a first time VN Player.

My first Visual Novel was Snatcher so saying that someone cannot start a VN just because it uses older mechanics is wrong since there are plenty of people who grew up with those mechanics in the first place to pave the way for newer mechanics!

I can say that there are first time Visual Novel players out there can play either game as their 1st game because chances are, if they met the criteria I already said, they are most likely familiar with many older things to begin with since they already like older movies and Metal Gear is now considered a retro game if you count the MSX Games or even MGS1 by today's standards.

If they have no qualms with anything retro beforehand then they shouldn't have a problem playing something else that's also retro!

I know plenty of people that were aware of Snatcher and Policenauts via the MGS connection who aren't even huge fans of the MGS Series but were curious to see how Kojima's work was outside of his most famous series so they decided to play those games despite them never playing a Visual Novel before. I wasn't even the one who told them to do it, they just played them on their own and I found out after the fact!

You say that having a Point and Click type system makes it awful or you rather may think that they are archaic but plenty of other games that are newer still use it as a basis or even in an evolved form like the Adventure games by Telltale.

Now if a VN newbie in question opposes everything that's older then by all means I wouldn't recommend retro VNs to them but just because a VN is older doesn't mean you can't recommend it to them if you think it's a good fit for the person.

Edited by JakatoX
Minor edit

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@JakatoX

However that's the problem. You assume 80s Sci-Fi Movie Fans or Hideo Kojima Fans are also point and click game fans. There is a reason those games died out and I highly doubt there are many fans of the genre who consider the gameplay to be well...fun. While I cannot speak for policenauts, I have played games with a similar style like Yuno and Eve Burst error. And regardless of how interested in the story I was, this was always killed when I had to constantly click on everything just in the vague hope of hitting the thing that would trigger the next scene.

Sure There are examples like Telltale of success in this genre but honestly telltale is more along the lines of mass effects dialogue system and quick time events, while only taking the bare bones of what is quintessential point and click adventure gameplay.

When trying to get someone interested in a genre such as visual novels it's better to go with something that doesn't have a chance of turning them away due to dated mechanics. Let me put it this way, Say this person plays Policenauts and it really doesn't agree with them. However what bothers them is the gameplay and not the nature of the Visual novel itself but because they played this first it dissuades them from trying a VN that would be more suited to their tastes. First impressions are key as Visual novels are not everyone's cup of tea so when presenting something to get them interested in the medium it's better to go with something easier to digest.

Lets say this, when getting someone into anime do you A) shove a 50 episode dated Gundam Zeta in their face or B) Give them something more approachable like Death note or Baccano?

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2 hours ago, AidanAK47 said:

Sorry to say but there's some really bad advice going on here.

First off, anyone suggesting Saya no Uta. Sure it's short but jesus...it's a bit intense for a first timer.

......

Third, suggesting fifty hour games. Thats a bit much for a first time. Admittedly my first VN was Fate/stay night but still. Better to have something that doesn't require such a huge time investment.

...

Yup, I agree on you on those. That's why I suggested proceed with caution if choosing top ranked VNs as many of those are having longer read time or plots which might not be suitable for newtimers. I think they will need something that can help them transition into a VN reader, and these two might actually backfire on their first reading experience.

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@AidanAK47

But you yourself are automatically assuming that Policenauts is your standard run of the mill Point and Click game!

Is a Point and Click game? Yeah sure but I referenced Telltale specifically because unlike a usual Point and Click game this game does have QTEs, Rail-Shooter Sequences, and dare I say Layton-esk Puzzles. You can't just shove it in the same category as the other games that just happen to use that kind of interface.

I'm not saying that 80s Sci-Fi Movie Fans or Hideo Kojima Fans would be Point and Click game fans right off the bat so they should play this but I would like to think that since they already dealing with things are Retro they wouldn't find the game's interface as off-putting as a person who doesn't deal with older things like playing MSX Games.

If they already delt with the trouble of having to trigger events using the Radio and MSX Interface from MG1 and MG2 then they really shouldn't have a problem with moving a mouse to perform an action.

As I said earlier I talked to people who haven't played VNs before playing Policenauts and they liked the game despite the dated mechanics because it has a great story and unexpected gameplay changes.

Would I recommend a regular dated Visual Novel to a person with no prior experence in the VN game genre? Perhaps not, but if the game does things that breaks the mold of it's peers by having entire sequences that aren't usually found in it's genre then I say it's worth checking out.

Edited by JakatoX
Minor Edit

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Gotta agree with several people here, suggesting a very long game could backfire but I do believe you have to consider the person's tastes as well.

There's no real textbook answer since everyone's tastes vary, even though the same games tend to be brought up. In my opinion, most of these suggestions are good but they have to be put in context and adapted for the【target】 :)

Suggestions will obviously be different for someone who's not willing to read for extended periods of time compared to someone who's used to reading novels for instance. Genre plays a part too.

In the case of Snatchers and Policenauts, being a sci-fi fan and being familiar with fiction like Blade Runner as well as pop culture from the 80s help with setting things up. At that point, the gameplay mechanics may end up being less important if the player is hooked.

Of course, you can be hooked without having the "prerequisites" but you might as well suggest a game which has higher chances of being enjoyed, right ? If they do enjoy the initial experience, they'll start looking up for further games. This is a much bigger achievement than just dumping a (relatively) huge list which can seem off-putting.

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On 11/17/2015 at 6:10 PM, Kuremisago said:

Guide to VNs 2015.png

That’s a solid list (Granted that is a list of translated works). Allow me to go one step further. I'll be blunt. 90% of VNs are Eroge. If someone ask me they want to get into VN,  I would ask them the degree of erotica on their reading. If they want a focus on story and little to no eroticism,  that reddit list is a nice recommendation. If they want erotica,  I would then ask what genre they are interested whether they want nukige, ntr, romcon, humiliation, guro, etc. Then I would point out the recommendation. As you can see there is a problem in this approach. What if they want a balance of elements? Character and plot with eroticism. I haven't been asked but I have wondered by myself the what if. What VNs balance those elements? Unfortunately from what I seen, one can't have it all. That is the question for me that maybe someone could answer,  and if not I'll keep looking for the answer. 

Edited by Omega

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@Omega Maybe the "All ages" versions, when available, bring more balance to the content by removing the most extreme parts?

I have yet to play both versions of a VN to be sure, and it probably depends on the VN itself anyway.

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2 hours ago, cabfe said:

@Omega Maybe the "All ages" versions, when available, bring more balance to the content by removing the most extreme parts?

I have yet to play both versions of a VN to be sure, and it probably depends on the VN itself anyway.

But that is the thing good sir. The all ages version of a novel works only if the Novel has very few NSFW elements. What if the NSFW is necessary for the novel? What if those scenes reveal plot points or serve for character development? My point is that the demographics and market for VNs are quite different in West and East. In the West we usually mean the ones posted in the reddit but in Japan it will be most of the time an erotic novel. There usually no in between. And the ones that can be edited to remove certain elements, probably could be edited in the first place. I'll be honest,  there are novels out there that can be considered in between but those novels usually are, forgive the pun, too novel for western audiences. People will in the West will diminish such works due to those elements and frame them to be just "porn"  instead of a distinctive artistic medium. Quite sad indeed. I think there is big possibilities for new story telling if the west didn't shun away from a very human element, sexuality. I believe series like Game of Thrones are a nice step forward in finding this balance. And that is just one of many reason I find pleasure in reading Visual Novels good sir. 

 

Edit: @cabfe tl;dr: I do agree with you sir, I just went in a rant. That is all.

Edited by Omega

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I just finished One Thousand Lies, another free kinetic novel that would be good for beginners. It's available for Windows, Mac, Linux, and Android in both English and Spanish. The story is a blend of silly comedy and artsy philosophy.

http://onethousandlies.weebly.com

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@cabfeI'm gonna recommend the Ar tonelico series which got me started and has vn elements.

Ar tonelico 2 still remains my favorite jrpg all these years like Muv-Luv has remained my favorite series all these years.

The first one is a bit dated but the sound track and the diving system makes up for it very underrated and one of the easier titles to pick up, two is a bit more difficult because of the gameplay but if you've played a few rhythm games you should find it easy enough.

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