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What are your thoughts on the ending of Alternative?

Thoughts on ending of Alternative?   44 members have voted

  1. 1. Ending of MLA

    • Loved it
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    • Liked it mostly, but I had some issues with it
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    • Mixed feelings towards it/I'm too conflicted with emotions
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    • Didn't like it, but there are parts that I liked
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68 posts in this topic

... Considering that the EU is the only superpower in the whole series which for now hasn't had any kind of internal problems whatsoever, and that the only refugee soldier we've seen on the US is precisely Finnish, I don't see your "breakup" of the EU like this at all. Some neat ideas are there though.

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On 15/02/2016 at 10:00 AM, Marx-93 said:

... Considering that the EU is the only superpower in the whole series which for now hasn't had any kind of internal problems whatsoever, and that the only refugee soldier we've seen on the US is precisely Finnish, I don't see your "breakup" of the EU like this at all. Some neat ideas are there though.

Watch Schwarzesmarken, it details eu issues. 

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10 hours ago, Reavan said:

Watch Schwarzesmarken, it details eu issues. 

It details mostly Warsaw Pact issues (well, even then mostly eastern German). Without spoiling what happens at the end of Schwarzesmarken, after the loss of Europe, unlike the Western nations and Scandinavia which had focused on retreating their assets, eastern European nations lost almost everything. They only managed to survive thanks to the help of the NATO, and now are mostly simply a set of alliances inside the European Union (their armies seem to have diminished a lot too). We don't even know anything of what happened to the Stasi.

The only appearance of Eastern Europeans after Schwarzesmarken is basically 2 test flight with TSF that are basically soviets TSF modernized with NATO tehcnology: one of them sent to Yukon, and the other to help culling operations and with one of the pilots  actually being former nobility. They mellowed out a lot.

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6 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

It details mostly Warsaw Pact issues (well, even then mostly eastern German). Without spoiling what happens at the end of Schwarzesmarken, after the loss of Europe, unlike the Western nations and Scandinavia which had focused on retreating their assets, eastern European nations lost almost everything. They only managed to survive thanks to the help of the NATO, and now are mostly simply a set of alliances inside the European Union (their armies seem to have diminished a lot too). We don't even know anything of what happened to the Stasi.

The only appearance of Eastern Europeans after Schwarzesmarken is basically 2 test flight with TSF that are basically soviets TSF modernized with NATO tehcnology: one of them sent to Yukon, and the other to help culling operations and with one of the pilots  actually being former nobility. They mellowed out a lot.

And what ?  USSR Tu-4 based on B-29-5-BW , Pokryshkin flying Bell P-63 Kingcobra , engine Klimov VK-1 (RD-45) unlicensed improved copy Rolls-Royce Nene drawings and samples of which have been sold to the USSR in March 1946 !!! a lawsuit from a Rolls Royce to 207 million pounds was only royalties for each engine released. Moreover in the 60's of the USSR it is partially paid.That did not stop organizing "MiG Alley" during the Korean War. American pilots shot down airplanes with English engines for which the British and even the money received.But the United States also acted badly with Britain. Machines which produce tanks and fighter Messerschmitt and Coca-Cola in Nazi Germany they had stopped supplying only the fall of 1943. By the way there was so drink Fanta - the invention of the Nazi doctorsHistory is not black and white. The history of mankind difficult with a lot of shades. And Western European Union eaten BETA no worse than the East.So it is not a fact which of them will become a leader - the EU and its religiosity. Or East Germany with its directive human existence. Muv luv this is not our world.

Edited by techwork

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A Japan-Russia relations even more ambiguous. Units 731 100 and 516 not only were executed. But after the false and ostentatious Khabarovsk process received a research laboratory at the secret bases and its continued development. Moreover them then with all this knowledge go home to Japan. Where they got good jobsRussian women often fall in love with the Japanese prisoners of war living outside camps (engineers, turners, electricians) due to their hard-working and a passive behavior.

And in the days of the Empire. In 1905, when Japan won among congratulating Japan were citizens of the Russian Empire which was considered Witte policy to seize Korea is not correct.
At the same time, and in 1946 in Japan were popular socialist and pro Soviet sentiment. Because even though the Soviet Union and defeated Japan in Manchuria but Russian culture has had a tremendous impact on the Japanese. And he did not destroy the civilian Japanese population. Fighting against the Japanese army. United States burned all the major cities in Japan. Destroying the enemy biological basis. And if Japan is not needed as a base against the USSR the independence she would never have received.

The Japanese understood this perfectly, and therefore already in 1960 despite the fact that the peace agreement not present till now, it has sold in the USSR any technique and worked with Soviet scientists. In this is mutually beneficial.
And the Soviet Union willingly bought Japanese construction equipment because he lacked the capacity to manufacture its equipment. Since Soviet industry was working for military needs.
In this, Japan demands from Russia Northern Territory. And Russia, in order not to give the Southern Kuriles regular flexes showing nuclear bombers.

In this sushi wildly popular in Russia. Most of the Russian once in his life ate them. Who likes who do not. But what is it they know almost everything. Russian lit even his style of sushi and rolls.. A completely different than in the US and the other, though similar to the Japanese.
Judo as popular as the Russian Sambo and Army Unarmed Fight . Almost everywhere they engaged in Sambo and Judo engaged.

Well, the anime too. Although much smaller. But Russian largest anime pirates. 99% of anime Russian pirated copy and translation of thousands of volunteers. And once the day of release, and sometimes stealing the working material.
If anime would not be popular in Russia no one would not do it. But that's why the Japanese studio can not fully understand how much anime is popular in Russia. Russian 99% do not know no other language than Russian.

By the way the first film adaptation of Chekhov's The Cherry Orchard was the Japanese Empire.

Style visual key came from Russian-Japanese-Chinese trade in North Korea and the CER. When Koreans adventurers and bandits, bought the old tsarist greatcoat and altered their varying proportions to fantastic and could put them in the most unexpected promptness example with an iron helmet with a two-headed eagle, with shiny cylinder circus performer. Or for example circus dress Malvina. The purpose of this was to shock the passenger trains which they looted. And indeed all the others. Description It has for example in the writings of Bishop Hrisanf (1911). What is interesting - he found it beautiful.

Emperor Nicholas 2 received in Otsu blow samurai sword. And in the hand and forearm he had a tattoo Eastern horned dragon.
And in Otsu incident because of a police, was a sergeant in the army stifled the revolt of Satsuma and everyone thought that Saigo Takamori had gone to Russia, and he was afraid that Nicholas brought Takamori 2 and he will be punished for what he has gone against.

Hokkaido was the first in the Russian Empire and then to a part of the Principality of Matsumae. It is strange but true.
I could go on for very long. Japan-Russia relations are multifaceted fantastic. And that's how it is all be described with one word?
A relationship with the United States simple - weaker, following the stronger.But it is only possible with the United States. Superman in which only cares about himself.

And the rest of the world is multi-faceted.

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... I'm not arguing about the world being multi-faceted. I know that

What I'm arguing is about Eastern Europe having enough force or even the will of coming out of the European Union. After 1984. almost all socialite forces in Europe were destroyed, and their government was in shambles (Schwarzesmarken shows it at the end, well, at least the LN, I don't know if the anime will reach there). They managed to survive thanks to the EU helping them, and have moved their Government to northern Ireland and are not only collaborating, but integrated within the EU. They still have good relations with the Soviets, but their new TSF is actually a westernized Mig (and made within Project PROMINENCE), and not the Su-37 series for example.

Despite all the Eurofront stories, the only time Eastern units have appeared (besides the nameles pilots in TE) were 4 Eastern German TSFs in support of a Western German TSF squadron (and the relation was even good, compare with Schwarzesmarken again). And nothing more: we've had French, Italian, even Turkish TSF squads appear. Likewise with Nordics TSFs. It's even a plot point in Schwarzesmarken again, how the western nations are saving their strength by pulling out of the continent as the Warsaw Pact acts as their shield and refuses to let people flee. They simply don't have the manpower or strength to recover, or even rebuild their countries without help. They didn't even have the manpower to maintain their status as a nation in exile without NATO help.

And the hate against America by the EU is also a little weird. Operation Dunkirk is literally described as: "With the BETA advance into Western Europe, the European nations evacuate their civilians and civilization to Africa, South America, and South-east Asia. This would continue until 1984.". And the Nordic citizens would be affected equally. Despite absolutely hating Alternative V, they are in constant collaboration with American marines in culling operations and in the defence of the Western Defense Line. Not that it's impossible, but, for example, Japan and the URSS should hate America a lot more than the EU.

The EU in MuvLuv is very different to the one in the real World. More than an alliance is a quasi-federal state. As a quasi federal state, in which both the Warsaw pact and the nordic kingdoms are integrated, do you think they would accept the sedition of almost half their territory? Why would that half of the territory, with a very low manpower and economic strength want to leave when they could make use of their richer neighbours to help them rebuild? Even the French have kinda accepted it, and they're the ones with the most problems with the EU...

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http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/130-what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-ending-of-alternative/&page=3#comment-5756

On 2/18/2016 at 0:47 PM, Marx-93 said:

Project PROMINENCE

You enough example of the MiG-15 and Tu-4? Using technology to nothing obliges. It's just a military technical cooperation.
But Western Europe has suffered no less East. France, Italy, Spain, West Germany, Switzerland, Portugal eaten just as East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria. No people anywhere. Only in Britain and Denmark, on the island there are people. Even South Britain destroyed, although it later recaptured without giving establish hive. The EU economy is destroyed exactly as EESA.

There is no "mercy of Western Europe" is not there. Government and EU and EESA are separate although cooperate. But while they are in exile. As the PRC government in UFC . Then they too, will inevitably diverge interests. Just you have some the naive view about politics. The frequency of references in the manga does not speak about. Authors simply physically can not immediately draw all countriesIn the manga, such as no mention at all of those who are holding back the front in Thailand and in India. But there is the logic of some of the most hellish fronts. Enough to see the map of hivesIn the manga there is no word about those who hold back the tide on the island of Novaya Zemlya (New Earth or Land (in russan Земля this both.and if written Земля - Earth земля - land), Severnaya Zemlya(North Land but other (oldest) name Land of Emperor Nicolas 2 (Last Emperor Russia) , the  Novosibirskie (New Siberian) Islands and Franz Josef Land. The former territories of the USSR. But this is an area larger than the territory of Japan. These lands are drawn as the uncontrolled Beta. But in the manga it is said that the Soviet Union controls only Wrangel Island. Those who control the island? Yeah, they are cold, but there may be live. They further south than Spitsbergen. Where is by the way the Soviet Union too has three towns. The authors leave the world open for future stories. And it's not possible to describe all at once.And purely practical - Anime is a business, the longer describes the franchise, the longer the animators and mangaka has a job. Why successful and considered Gundam, Bleach, One Piece, Pokemon, or Gintama and went like that for years.
And the first anime of the this universe happened only in 2013. About dark areas that sooner or speak clearly. But there is a logic of the universe and style. In this universe there is no naive fairy tale about all the people in one of the UN selflessly fighting with one enemy. Everything is much more realistic.
People are heroes - but the governments think about their personal gain. All governments of the world - every for his own advantage.

Hate against USA is not strange In the refugee camps from hunger is dying more people than on Beta. You have all learned why there was an incident in the YukonTerrorist tells her mother engaged in prostitution in the refugee camp in the United States order to feed his daughterAmericans give a shit about the refugees. They accepted them only in order not to become an enemy to the UN.But feed them and they did not think. (In the real world, the United States, and had so done the Indians 236 reservations still now, Unemployed during the Great Depression, the Japanese in the year 1941-1945, and with the Chinese in the construction Transpacific Railway and other Railway on the West USA and to buid San-Francisco city.) Dude you tried to study History?

Dude you tried to study World War II ? Who took Berlin know? USSR was in ruins when Churchill said Fulton speech and were planning the operation to destroy the Soviet Union.Operation Unthinkable Operation Dropshot

Hiroshima and Hagasaki were destroyed to frighten the Soviet Union. The entire industrial base was the Japanese Empire in Manchuria and the USSR after it seized during Operation August Storm Empire of Japan would be unable to resist. It is recognized, and the General Staff of Japan that is not afraid of nuclear bombing. Because Tokyo was already burned as Hiroshima without nuclear bombs.
But when he learned about the pace of advancement of the USSR in Manchuria decided to surrender the army. Which Kwantung Army rejected the saying that will fight for Japan to end.
But the Soviet Union has made a number of airborne operations to capture the leadership of the Kwantung Army, and after he began to surrender.The Americans are only in their own interests. Japan fortunate that these interests coincided. But the Japanese are well aware and has always understood. Had global catastrophe and the Americans will save yourself a little thinking about the other. The rest of the world does not care. They are complacent and think of his self as a hero, it is very afraid for their lives and assets. And the Japanese will have to solve their problems themselves.
But for us Russian, Japanese, too, correct opinion. We strive to save the world. The world power lead to a brighter future - but do it so that it would be better not to do. We simply had dreadful leaders. The worst in the world. We have a sadistic secret services. Of our most perverted maniacs and large-scale in the world. At the same time ordinary people, silly and emotional.
Similar to the snooty kids. Sometimes strange, but open. Best of all relates to you the one who tells you the unpleasant truth. And we do not smile just for smile. Today a friend and tomorrow may be necessary to kill each other - this is a common situation for RussiaBut why such a situation to avoid. But it is always ready for itAnd at the same time the enemy if he is strong and selfless, arouses interest, and if it is a culture that is attractive, even respect.If the culture of the enemy in tune with Russian culture, they tend to make friends with him, even though the rulers and the propagandists have always opposed. Because since the fall of the Republic of Novgorod rulers are tyrants and petty tyrants. Although the Cossacks constantly resisted the influence of the rulers. (Few people know in the West, but the Cossacks - Russian who did not pay taxes to the Tsar) And they came from the Novgorod Republic. There was a class - Povolniki. Which when the Mongols arrived in Perm, founded Vyatka Republic and ushkuynikov (military and adventurers who robbed Muslims and the Mongols, freed slaves, and even twice destroyed the capital of the Golden Horde - Sarai) was symbolized by Polar Bear - Oshkoy. Vyatskaya Republic was independent and existed for 70 years after the fall of the Novgorod Republic.In addition, they founded Mangazeya. The state in northern Siberia richness superior to most countries in the world. Which only in 1620 conquered MoscowWith the trade blockade of Europe and under the threat of China.The state was little populated. But in the city Mangazeya was one of the largest foundries in Europe. And the factory for the production of the most advanced Flintlock guns.  But the Qing Dynasty was much more populated and closer Albazin wars (40 years russo-chinese conflict). Cossacks decided to go to the Tsar of citizenship but retained the right not to pay taxes to the Tsar. History is cool. :) I love robots, drones and history. And social modeling.

Edited by techwork

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Let's just say I completely disagree on most of those arguments: First, unlike Eastern Europe, Western Europe had an entire operation with the objective of evacuating Europeans not to the USA, but to South America and Africa. It started around 1980 and ended in 1984 (if you talk continually about history I can then remind you about the relocation of Soviet industry during operation Barbarossa?). And they still have the United Kingdom (which is explicitly compared to Japan in Integral Works), Sicily and the extraeuropean territory, which is thousands more than what eastern Europe has, on industry and territory, besides having millions above in sheer people due to the evacuation. Do you know which other nation survives, in The Day After, besides USA, Canada and Japan? France. Not the mighty URSS, which should even have Alaska, or even any of the other coalitions. France, one of the European countries which in Alternative has at least the same or less strength than Germany or the UK. Secondly, that the East Germany is cooperating with West Germany in a way very similar to what happens in China, but the whole EESA is under the European Union framework; they aren't just going to let them go, like that, specially if they could pull a fast one on the Soviets and maintain them. And lastly, the EESA has no means to reconquer all eastern Europe, which includes at least 2 hives, by themselves alone. Just like Japan did most of the grunt-work in the Korean hive, they will need either EU forces or USA marines to do it for them. And I don't think neither of them would accept a "thanks for the work, now I'll return to be a communist and hate you, kay? bye".

Overall, I don't know what we're discussing anymore. I know a fair bit about politics and history, and sincerely, while certainly neat from a history standpoint (though the fact that it was the Invasion of Manchuria the one that forced Japan to capitulate is only a theory), I don't see how your examples they address the point...? I never argued that the situation in USA refugee camps wasn't very bad, or that politics isn't constant backstabbing: I just argue that in this situation is much more likely for the EU to forcibly (either through economic or military means) keep the EESA than to let it go free, just like that (unless the URSS intervened very heavily and reached Europe much faster than expected in their reconquest against the BETA, but then the EESA would go back to being glorified Soviet colonies).

Edited by Marx-93

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The procedure for the evacuation of Europe is nowhere described. Fanfics not count. On the contrary - this universe network points right that most of the Europeans came to America. In France there own country. Kindly do not dream and explore the first topic.In general, first examine the setting of the universe then we'll talk. Yankees.

 

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9 hours ago, techwork said:

The procedure for the evacuation of Europe is nowhere described. Fanfics not count. On the contrary - this universe network points right that most of the Europeans came to America. In France there own country. Kindly do not dream and explore the first topic.In general, first examine the setting of the universe then we'll talk. Yankees.

 

First, I'm not American nor a yankee. Second, there's a thing called Integral works, of which we have a few partial translations and which explains a lot of what you say as "fanfics" and "dreams". After we have the full translation called Codex, I can kindly return and explain in this thread fully what is and not is explained, but the evacuation of Europe is certainly described there.

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It's called Operation Dunkirk, it occurred in 1981 and went through 1984 until the collapse of Western Europe to the BETA. Prior to this in 1980, the United Nations began negotiating with non-conflict nations that were outside of the theatre of war (Like Canada, African Union, South America etc) to accept exiled governments and refugees.

Detailed in the Alternative Timeline article, which gets its information, like the rest of the wiki, from official sources like IW, Lost Arcadia, etc.

Also, as a nitpick, many other European nations survived in The Day After because their governments and even parts of their military were already in Canada at the time, or managed to make it before the super-tsunami occurred. It was the French, however, that were able to maintain the most control over their military assets and were also able to gather radical support from the local Quebec population for their revolution. They coerced the remaining EU (and UN) forces into the Canada-French alliance via force, and so became the driving member of the exiled European states in North America.

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7 hours ago, G3rman said:

They coerced the remaining EU (and UN) forces into the Canada-French alliance via force, and so became the driving member of the exiled European states in North America.

Oho, I actually didn't knew that, and it could explain a lot (and make the Day After make a tad more sense). Thanks. It's explained on one of the Day After episodes or on other sources, if you mind me asking?

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11 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

Oho, I actually didn't knew that, and it could explain a lot (and make the Day After make a tad more sense). Thanks. It's explained on one of the Day After episodes or on other sources, if you mind me asking?

Yes, it's shown in Chronicles 04 when, in the aftermath of peace between the US/JPN and CDA/FRA and the attack on the JFK Hive, we see groups of UN forces that were originally part of the EU, such as Zerberus Battalion. Also, it's well documented that Canada, among other nations, accepted refugees and governments in exile in both the Unlimited and Alternative world. A CG in Chronicles also displays Europe's flight during Operation Babylon to Africa and Canada.

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17 hours ago, G3rman said:

Yes, it's shown in Chronicles 04 when, in the aftermath of peace between the US/JPN and CDA/FRA and the attack on the JFK Hive, we see groups of UN forces that were originally part of the EU, such as Zerberus Battalion. Also, it's well documented that Canada, among other nations, accepted refugees and governments in exile in both the Unlimited and Alternative world. A CG in Chronicles also displays Europe's flight during Operation Babylon to Africa and Canada.

I saw that shot, but I thought the European forces came from South America and were just neutral in that whole mess. Given how quick the attack on the Hive is though, I suppose it makes sense they were around. It would also make sense that all the troops and facilities in Greenland were moved to Canada, and that there already was a heavy European presence there... it may explain how a half nuked country and a republic without land managed to get on a level where they could at least fight (and not lose in 30 seconds) to the USA and Japan remnants.

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5 hours ago, Marx-93 said:

I saw that shot, but I thought the European forces came from South America and were just neutral in that whole mess. Given how quick the attack on the Hive is though, I suppose it makes sense they were around. It would also make sense that all the troops and facilities in Greenland were moved to Canada, and that there already was a heavy European presence there... it may explain how a half nuked country and a republic without land managed to get on a level where they could at least fight (and not lose in 30 seconds) to the USA and Japan remnants.

South America hasn't really been mentioned in Muv-Luv at all, especially in Chronicles. To my knowledge its considered a wasteland, similar to Australia.

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In russian yankee is analog dumb superhero. The man whose head chop nuts. But he is thinks that he knows everything. And with absolute conviction proves that that is strongly at odds with the real situation.

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I'm hoping that Altered Fable gets included as part of Alternative just as Unlimited was with Extra on Steam. Degica/ixtl should make it happen. Because Altered Fable picks up where Alternative left off. Oh and btw, do NOT take out the original op and ed of Altered Fable. They are catchy songs! And please don't take out the original op and ed of Alternative! Pretty please?!

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